By Allen Haynes • February 3, 2025 Listen to the podcast. Andy Stanley (00:02): Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, A conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy Stanley, and before we jump into today’s content, I want to tell you about an offer from our friends at belay. As you know, leading requires being responsible for our teams and their needs, and in certain seasons, isn’t it true that that requires additional time and energy, which means we need to find a way to maximize our productivity because, well, the day-to-day stuff just doesn’t let up, and that’s where BELAY can help. For over a decade, BELAY has provided busy leaders with exceptional US-based virtual assistants, accounting professionals, and marketing assistants to help us stay focused on what is important. To help you get started, BELAY is offering a free download of their ebook, 10 Tactics to Boost Productivity, making Your Workdays more sustainable, productive, and fulfilling does not have to be out of reach. (00:58): This resource from Belay is full of helpful tips and strategies for doing just that. So don’t miss your chance to get a free download of 10 Tactics to Boost Productivity to claim this offer. Text the word Andy, a NDY, to 5 5 1 2 3. That’s a NDY to 5 5 1 2 3. And now let’s jump into today’s content. Today we’re talking about how to resist resistance to the new novel and the not how we do things around here. In other words, how to maintain the posture of a student rather than a critic. And joining me to unpack this topic is my way smarter than me co-host Suzy Gray. Welcome, Suzy. Suzy Gray (01:38): Well, thanks Andy. I’m excited to dive into this topic because it’s something I think all leaders wrestle with. At some point, innovation and new ideas are what move our organizations forward, but they can often feel like interruptions or threats even to the systems that we’ve put into place. Andy Stanley (01:54): I feel like they most always do. Suzy Gray (01:56): Definitely. Andy Stanley (01:56): Yeah. Suzy Gray (01:57): And I know this is something, Andy, you’ve been talking about for many, many years, and so why do you think it’s so critical for leaders to embrace a mindset of being a student rather than a critic? Andy Stanley (02:06): Well, I think primarily because new ideas and new approaches are new innovations never come from the people who are currently in charge, right? Suzy Gray (02:14): Yeah. Andy Stanley (02:15): They’re never my idea. If they’re my ideas, they’re good ideas, right? Always. If they’re somebody else’s ideas, it feels a little bit threatening. And the people behind the current ideas, products, and approaches at all of our organizations, the people who in some instances, and this is the case for me, actually paid a price invested years to make the status quo, the status quo. Initially, it’s like, wait a minute, I thought we were doing well, Suzy Gray (02:38): Doing great. Yeah. Andy Stanley (02:39): Yeah. I love these ideas. The next thing, and we have talked about this some, the next thing, the next good idea often originates with the next generation of leaders, not the current one. And oftentimes that means these new ideas or these innovations originate from the second or third tier in the organization, which means in some instances, people who are new to organization, who come in with fresh eyes and fresh ideas, who ask those irritating questions like, why do we do it this way? Or Why do we do this at all? And then there’s the, have you heard what that other organization is doing? And as much as I would like to say that I am so wide open, these things never bother me. They bother me almost every single time. And we’re going to get to that in just a minute. The point, and everybody listening gets this, we’re all comfortable with the systems we’ve built. They fit us perfectly, Suzy Gray (03:30): And we understand them. Andy Stanley (03:31): We understand them. We were hired into them, we became experts. And the problem is we can get so comfortable that we hang on even after they stop working or start working as well as they used to. The very thing most leaders have criticized other older leaders for doing, (03:48): And (03:48): I so badly don’t want to be that leader because all of us at some point probably worked for people who held onto things too long or did things the way they’ve always done ’em just because that’s how they were always done, and we were so frustrated. And now some of us are in the position to where we’re the they, and we just don’t want to be Suzy Gray (04:07): The they Andy Stanley (04:07): They that they, yeah. So the temptation is always to dismiss or critique new ideas because they’re disruptive, as you said, they’re inconvenient, they’re threatening, but dismissive head in the sand. Leadership is a strategy for irrelevance. And one of the reasons I like talking about this is I want to be reminded of this. If you want to speed your organization or your department or product toward irrelevance, just refuse to be a student. Just be a critic. Just maintain the posture of a critic. And initially, and here’s the thing that’s so deceiving. Initially you sound like an expert, Suzy Gray (04:45): Right? Andy Stanley (04:46): Because people show up with new ideas or innovations or they want to change things, and we immediately begin to pontificate about here’s why it won’t work. That’s right. Here’s why it won’t work. We tried that. We’ve already tried that. Why do you think we’re doing it this way? And it began because we’re the leaders or we’re the founders. Our words carry so much weight and we sound like the expert. And the thing is, if you’re in charge, most people aren’t going to question your endless pontifications as to why the new idea or approach is just different for different sake. But the handwriting’s on the wall, the clock is counting down backwards. Irrelevance is just around the corner. It may be a long corner, but it’s coming for us. Suzy Gray (05:26): That Andy Stanley (05:26): Sounds so ominous. Suzy Gray (05:27): That does sound so ominous. But it’s such a good point because it’s so true, because I think every leader listening can relate to that. So Andy, let’s start here. Why is it so hard for established leaders to embrace new ideas? Andy Stanley (05:39): Well, there are probably several reasons. Pride of authorship established reputation around a product or service. This was actually Andy Grove’s story with Intel. We’ve talked about that before. We make chips and the Japanese are almost putting them out of business, but this is what we do. This is what we do. We make computer chips. Sometimes we just enjoy not just what we do, but how we do it. The change feels like a personal loss. It may take the joy away from our job. Age can be a factor. I mean, think about it this way. The less time or the less life we’ve invested in something, the easier it is to let go of it or change it. But if you’re 20 or 30 years in change, feels like you’re losing part of yourself. (06:23): But back to your question of why this is so hard, perhaps threading its way through, all of those excuses or reasons are two factors, pride and insecurity. And what I want to say next is so important. It’s really important for everybody. I might not talk to my kids about this, but it is really important for leaders. Here’s the thing. Humans naturally resist things they can’t control or don’t understand. We naturally resist initially. We just naturally resist anything that we can’t control because we feel out of control and nobody wants to feel out of control. And we resist things that we initially don’t understand. It’s just human nature. And the reason control is a factor is that when something new is introduced or worse forced on us, we feel, like I said, we feel out of control. We feel off balance. So we resist in order to maintain or regain our balance. (07:14): Again, it’s just natural and in some instances it’s necessary. And regarding insecurity, this could be a whole podcast topic. When we allow our identity to be defined by anything other than our values, in other words, what we value most, whenever we allow our identity to get wrapped around anything other than our values, we set ourselves up to be unduly impacted by insecurity. And here’s why I say that. When our identity or what we perceive gives us worth is tied to accomplishment. A product, an organization, our reputation, or even ideas, anything that threatens those things will feel personal to us. Like a personal attack, again, attack an idea that I’ve built my reputation or career on, and I feel attack. So what do I do? I’m going to push back, which means I run the risk of pushing back on a great idea because it threatens not my ideas, it threatens me. And leaders must consciously, intentionally, proactively work not to allow themselves to fall into that trap. Because every product, accomplishment, great idea, groundbreaking product or service has a shelf life. Every single one of ’em. Your best idea, my best idea, shelf life, every single one. But values don’t have a shelf life. Values carry through for a lifetime. And the shift from values, and I know we’re kind of off the topic here, Susie, so let me finish my thought, then you can get me back in the lane, right? Suzy Gray (08:46): Bring you back. Andy Stanley (08:47): That’s good. This shift from values to reputation and recognition is so subtle that we have to pay attention. So practically speaking, this is where I think many great leaders really stand apart from the pack. Great leaders recognize that internal tension, and I want to talk about that, that fear. They recognize that threat for what it really is, and they label their insecurity. They’re willing to label their insecurity, label their pride, label their fear for what it is. And they do all of this internally before they respond verbally. In other words, we look at great leaders and go, they’re not even impacted by any of this. They’re just so stoic. They’re just so locked in. But I’ve had enough conversations with people who’ve accomplished great things, and I’m telling you, it is in all of us that fear, the pride, the insecurity, we all carry that. The question is, are we willing and are we disciplined enough to deal with it internally rather than allowing ourselves to externalize that because Suzy Gray (09:49): And shut it down, Andy Stanley (09:50): Because we shut down conversations, we shut down other people, and as maybe we’ll have a minute talk about it actually has the potential to impact our organizational culture anyway. So good leaders, they label these things before they respond verbally and then they choose because it’s always a choice. We don’t think it is because we react, but it’s always a choice. Great leaders disciplined themselves to choose curious over critic and choose student over expert. And here’s the thing, and I just mentioned this. If we don’t get that right, if we don’t get that right, our initial response to new and untried and unproven has the potential to impact the culture of our departments or our entire organization. So as leaders, we have to check ourselves when we feel that knee jerk reaction to say, that won’t work. We tried that. We did that. Where are you from? One day you’ll understand whatever it is. We just have to pause and ask ourselves, okay, is this insecurity talking? Is this fear talking? Is this pride talking? And if we’re going to initially push back on anything we don’t understand or we can’t control, that’s usually what’s doing the talking. Suzy Gray (10:57): Yeah, that is a lot to think about because honestly, if you think about fear, especially it’s fear of looking stupid, fear of not understanding the new technology or fear of not being an expert on it. And so you’re in charge, but now you don’t understand the technology Andy Stanley (11:09): That’s coming up. Yep, we’ve talked about that because we’re responsible for things, Suzy Gray (11:11): We’re responsible Andy Stanley (11:12): For all that we don’t have expertise in. Suzy Gray (11:14): Exactly. And I can see how that insecurity does manifest itself in fear, and it’s that fear of, but how would I lead that because that’s new and different and not something that I’ve been here and created. That’s a lot to think about. And maybe even another podcast topic, like Andy Stanley (11:31): You said. I know. Well, as I was thinking through this conversation, I thought of two or three things. We’ve been doing this, we’re in our 30th year, so there have been so many times people have brought ideas to me that I just had to decide, I’m just going to trust you with this. I’m just going to trust them with this. And in most cases, they work out. In some cases, we wasted a lot of time and some resources, but I just don’t be the, hey, it doesn’t make sense to me. So it doesn’t make sense. Suzy Gray (11:55): Leader it sense, Suzy Gray (11:56): Period. Andy Stanley (11:57): I don’t understand it, so it doesn’t make sense. I just don’t want to be that person. But I have that internal thing where it’s like, Andy, just be quiet, Andy, be a student, not a critic. Be a student, not a critic. Anyway, Suzy Gray (12:08): It’s so good. I have definitely seen that in you over the years for sure. Andy Stanley (12:11): Well, it’s because you’ve brought me great ideas and I never understand them. I dunno, everybody in the studio is laughing right now because they know it’s true. That’s why I introduce you as Susie who’s way smarter than me. It’s like it makes sense to Susie, so it makes sense to someone, even if it’s only God, it makes sense to Susie, Suzy Gray (12:29): Somebody what I’m trying to say. Wow. Yeah. Well, on this topic, can you reduce this some first steps, some practical ways to shift our thinking? Because consequently, our initial response, if we shift, our thinking will be shifted regardless of what’s going on, our heads, what we say and do, and even our facial expressions when someone says something that I know is so, so important. So give us some tips on how to manage that and how to navigate that. Andy Stanley (12:56): Well, I think first of all, we just have to decide, I will be a student first and a critic second, or not at all. I will be a student first, regardless of how outlandish or crazy or expensive. I will be a student first and a critic second, or not at all. It not at all. I mean, I won’t be a critic at all, but I’m definitely going to be a student. In other words, we decide that before I critique something new, I need to commit to understanding it, which means I have to ask questions, not critical questions. Are you crazy? Why do you think that would work? Why do you think that would work? Where are you from? How old are you? That’s right. Tell me about your former employer in a way where you’ve been. No, because the right questions express curiosity and curiosity opens people up. I mean, curiosity, when you’re curious about a person or an idea a person’s bringing, that opens them up. So we’ve got to ask questions, be curious, be a student again, not a critic. And again, if you don’t understand something, just don’t dismiss it. Study it. I love this quote from Sam Harris. He just threw this out in a podcast years ago, and I’ve been giving him credit ever since. He said, we must pay attention to the frontiers of our ignorance. Suzy Gray (14:08): So Andy Stanley (14:08): Good. I just love that. It’s so visual. Pay attention to the frontiers of your ignorance. And no matter how successful you are or we are as leaders, there is a point to where we just are confronted with our own ignorance, our lack of experience, whatever it might be. So I think it all begins with, I’m going to decide to be a student first and a critic second if I need to be a critic at all. Suzy Gray (14:30): So that’s the first thing to get us started on practical tips to become a student, not a critic. What’s another one? Andy Stanley (14:37): Well, second thing is something we talk about all the time. That is listen to the next generation of the generation coming along behind us. And the older you get, the more of them there are, right? If you’re 30, you got about seven of people that are coming along behind you. But you get my age. There’s gobs of ’em, right? Al Reese, and I think it’s his book Focus, he says, the next generation product rarely comes from the previous generation. This is a quote I have written down that has followed me from office to office for years. The next generation product rarely comes from the previous generation, which means we have to listen to the generation coming along behind us. And then also in that same book, he talks about the temptation for leaders, older leaders or successful leaders to want to straddle the ditch. In other words, we want to keep one foot in the past and just put one foot in the future just in case, Suzy Gray (15:28): In case it doesn’t work out, in case it Andy Stanley (15:29): Doesn’t work out. And how that is a recipe for disaster. You have to fully commit. And again, the more successful you are, the more risky that is. (15:39): But if we’re going to be a student, not a critic, we’ve got to listen to the next generation. And then when we decide to move, you got to move. You got to go forward. So backing up a little bit, so when it comes to the next generation, it involves inviting them into the conversation. Innovation in any industry generally happens at the edges. So we have to listen to people on the edges of our organization or our industry. That’s where the fresh ideas come from. And whenever possible to allow them within the context of an organization to take some risk to fund some projects, fund some things, let them try some things, and then not to punish failure. That’s a big no-no. You punish failure of people. Quit Suzy Gray (16:21): Taking risk. You’re done. Andy Stanley (16:22): Yeah. Failure is we’ve learned something. That’s all the failures. We’ve learned something. Again, that’s how we learn. And when we quit taking risk again, the clock starts ticking backwards. So that’s the second thing. Suzy Gray (16:34): I just want to press in a little bit of what you just said about listening to the people in the fringes of your organization or industry. Isn’t it also true that you can listen to what’s happening in other adjacent industries? It may have nothing to do with yours. Andy Stanley (16:47): Yes. Listen to outsiders. Suzy Gray (16:48): Yes. Andy Stanley (16:49): That was one of our phrases, our early values in our organization. We just wrote that down. Listen to outsiders. Suzy Gray (16:54): Oh, that’s cool. Andy Stanley (16:54): Yeah, we’re trying to create environments for children. We should listen to Disney, not other churches. So twice we sent teams to Disney to do that backstage tour to say, Hey, I mean, again, we’re not going to be Disney, but they’re the experts. Why? Suzy Gray (17:08): What can we learn from that and apply and contextualize it into our context? And that’s that idea of that’s a way to listen to people in other industries and bring it in to your industry. Not say, oh, that won’t work because different than them, or We’re in a different industry, but that could work here and we could contextualize Andy Stanley (17:25): It. Well, you do that all the time because what you’re attempting to do, no one else is even attempting to do it. There’s not a lot of people to talk about. Or when we decided to begin Suzy Gray (17:34): Within our industry, Andy Stanley (17:36): But Suzy Gray (17:36): Outside of our industry, it’s everywhere. Andy Stanley (17:37): It’s everywhere. Well, when we decided to start streaming our services to other physical locations simultaneously with different video formats that were going to be locked up, nobody in our industry was doing that. In fact, when we would go to these trade shows and say, we’re looking for technology to do this, they would say, why would you do that? Why Suzy Gray (17:54): Would you want that? You’re Andy Stanley (17:55): Changing camera. Camera to camera. You’re going to get different shots. We’re like, no, we want to send two different shots to people can see both of them at the same time. So you go outside and you listen to outsiders. Suzy Gray (18:05): That’s right. Andy Stanley (18:05): And one more thing on this, I guess this would be number three. If we’re numbering these, don’t avoid the contrarians. And you know what I mean by a contrarian? Definitely. They’re not just asking hard questions. They come across, they’re against everything. And they’re not even really negative people. They just see the world differently. And you need those people. And one of the reasons they bring value to a board or to a decision-making environment is they have a tendency to kind of punch holes in our (18:34): Complacency, (18:35): Which is so important because complacency paves the way to decline. And Susie, for example, I don’t know if you have any illustrations from your business experience, but you are such a positive, positive person. I would think the contrarians would drive you crazy, but maybe you need them. Suzy Gray (18:51): I think it’s really important. I mean, I’ve had bosses that are contrary, and I’ve had leadership team people that are, and I think it’s really important because I am positive and I see way down the field, and it’s like, okay, that’s where we need to go, and we’ll just bring the right people and figure it out. And having people that are a little bit, but what about after the initial idea is out is actually super, super helpful for me. So I actually view it as a barometer, not as a limiter, Andy Stanley (19:20): But initially if we’re not mature about it, we have a tendency to write them off as just being negative and then not invite them into the conversation, and then we’re missing something. Tell you kind of a funny quick story about this. I don’t know if this will get edited out or not, but years ago we had, our board is about 10 or 11 people. And so we’re having a board meeting one night, and one of the guys on the board said, I think we were going to change some things in our bylaws. And he said, I think one of the changes we need to make is that from now on any decision we make has to be a unanimous vote, or we don’t do it Suzy Gray (19:53): Among 10 people. Andy Stanley (19:54): Among 10 people. If we’re going to make a decision, everybody has to agree, or it’s enough, Suzy Gray (19:58): We’re not leaving this room. Andy Stanley (19:59): And I’m like, oh, no. And I’m listening quietly, not trying to react, trying to see what the other folks in the room say. And so we’re having this discussion and it kind of felt like we were moving in that direction. I mean, this guy was pretty convincing. And sitting to my right is a guy named, I’ll just say John, that’s his real name. I won’t say his last name. And John was definitely a contrarian, and I loved having him as part of our board because again, I don’t want 10 contrarians, but one who just again, just kind of punches hole in our sky. Pie in the sky, everything’s going to work out. So I said, well, okay, tonight because we’re about to vote on these changes in the bylaws, I said, okay, lemme just say this. If you guys, because we only needed two thirds majority that night to make the decision that from now on we need a hundred percent. I know, Suzy Gray (20:46): Right? Andy Stanley (20:47): I said, if you gentlemen make this decision, you just need to know that I will have a hard time wanting to include guys. And I pointed to John, he’s sitting right next to me, John, on our board, because John is a natural contrarian, and I want his voice in the conversation. But if we have to be unanimous on everything, Suzy Gray (21:09): We’ll never get anything done. Andy Stanley (21:10): And he laughed. I mean, again, I was talking about it in front of him. And then I said to this gentleman who felt passionate about this, he was on a board of a really wonderful nonprofit, but he was talking about how this is how they did it in their organization. And I said, well, how many people are on your board? And he said, three. Suzy Gray (21:32): Well, then consensus wouldn’t be a Andy Stanley (21:33): Little easier. Yeah, well, if you only have three people on the board, you better all three agree. You may even want to tap the brakes. And everybody laughed, and we did not implement that. And the point is, you got to have that voice. You got to have those voices. You got to have the right people in the room and who need to aspire to be the dumbest person in the room, not the smartest person in the room. So anyway, don’t avoid contrarians. We need all those voices. And don’t take it personally. Again, this is when it goes back to what I said earlier, we all have to look in the mirror and ask, is this fear? Is it pride? Is it ego? Is it insecurity? I need to deal with that internally, externally. I need to be curious, curious, curious. Ask lots of questions and affirm the creativity and the innovation even of the people who are new to the organization and really, maybe they don’t know what they’re talking about, but that’s okay. Keep that stuff coming because we want the newest and the best ideas flowing. The thing is, I want my reputation personally, and I want the reputation of the board to be in the broader organization, a group of people who are open to change and open to new ideas. And that initial response says it Suzy Gray (22:38): All. And I’ve heard you say before that organizations that reward curiosity actually outperform those that don’t. So how does that play out in real? Andy Stanley (22:47): Yeah, that’s absolutely true. Here’s a great marketplace illustration that probably everybody’s already familiar with in tech companies. This happens all the time. I mean, I think it’s Google. Yeah, it’s Google. They give their team members a budget and then time to experiment with ideas. Even if the projects fail, again, they don’t penalize failure. The point being, here’s an organization that wants the best ideas and the brightest people, and so they reward them with the opportunity to try things and to do things. And all of this flows from the fact that they have attempted to build basically a learning organization or a culture that values learning over just being right all the time. Suzy Gray (23:25): One of the tech companies I was with, I actually ended up, my last role in that organization was leading a proof of concept team. Andy Stanley (23:32): And Suzy Gray (23:32): It was literally, we had a budget to go experiment and try stuff, and it was the most fun. But also it was you had metrics that you were doing and you had things that you had to kind of, but it wasn’t, Andy Stanley (23:45): You had a day job. Suzy Gray (23:46): You had a day job, but you also had like, Hey, you’re focused on doing something that’s coloring outside of the lines, doing something around the edges. And I think that’s why the organization was being so successful is because they were focusing on, we’ve got to do more of that. Andy Stanley (24:00): Yeah. (24:01): Well, for our podcast listeners that are thinking, oh yeah, that would be great, but in my industry, in my organization, there’s no room for that. I just want you to remember something. I work at a church. If you think there is resistance to new and innovative in your organization, trust me, there is probably no organization in the world that is more stuck or tends to be stuck in the past and don’t do it differently than the church. Because in our world, things are so tied to theology. People feel like you’re going against God to mess with certain things, experiment around the edges, Suzy Gray (24:39): The model of how you do stuff becomes a theological issue. Andy Stanley (24:42): Oh yeah. There’s chapter and verses that is not God’s will for us. So I understand the resistance and the pushback, but the point is, if you love your organization and if you love your mission, and if you love your product, or if you’re passionate about what you’re doing as a nonprofit, you have to be forward thinking, and you have to be curious, and you have to be a student, and you have to pay attention to the frontiers of your ignorance. And again, to kind of put this in the theological context, I mean, every religious text, Christian or non has something to say about pride. And that pride is not a winning strategy relationally in marriage, in business, in the world. So again, when we sense our insecurity and our pride, that is our enemy, not the people on the other side of us in the meeting. So anyway, Suzy Gray (25:35): Moving Andy Stanley (25:35): On. Suzy Gray (25:35): Yeah, so true. So as we wrap up, what is a takeaway for leaders listening to this podcast today? Andy Stanley (25:41): A couple of things. If you want to lead an organization that innovates, it starts with you. It starts with your response to ideas. Not that the innovation is your idea, it’s your response to those ideas. So you got to remember that when someone brings you a new idea, no matter how crazy it is, be a student first, ask questions, get curious. And when you find something worth testing, then you invest in it. The next big breakthrough. It’s not going to come from the people who are guarding the status quo. That never happens. It’ll come from those who are willing to learn and experiment and listen. And as leaders, we need to create the space and provide the resources for that to happen. And we’re the ones that control the budgets oftentimes. So consequently, that really is up to us. Suzy Gray (26:24): Well, Andy Stanley (26:24): That is Suzy Gray (26:25): So true, Andy Stanley (26:26): And unfortunately that is all the time we have today, but we’re going to talk about this again in the reverb episode. So thank you so much for listening. And before we leave, we have one ask, and that is to subscribe to the podcast. When you subscribe, you help us grow this audience, which allows us to keep improving, bringing you great guests and great content to help you as a leader, go further faster, and be sure to visit the Andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary of this entire discussion, plus questions for reflection for your team. And again, as I said, make sure you join us next week for the reverb episode where Susie and I will dig even deeper on embracing curiosity right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. Comments are closed.