By Allen Haynes • January 6, 2025 Listen to the episode. Andy Stanley (00:02): Hey everybody. Happy New Year and welcome back to another year of the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. A conversation as you know, designed to help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy Stanley. Before we jump into today’s content, I wanted to talk about today’s sponsor belay, who are offering a free resource to give you more time to focus on leading your organization. As you know, engaged leadership requires so much valuable time and energy, and because of that, establishing a productive work routine can make all the difference. And if you’ve been listening to our podcast, I struggle with routine, but once I get it right, it makes all the difference in the world. And that’s where belay comes in. 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I mean, honestly, what could be more exciting? And of course, joining me to unpack this exhilarating topic is my co-host Suzy Gray. Welcome, Suzy. Suzy Gray (01:47): Thanks, Andy. I’m excited to dive into this topic because while systems aren’t exciting, good systems are essential to effective organizational leadership because well, organizations are a collection of systems, and if our systems don’t support our goals, that is a problem. Andy Stanley (02:03): Yes, this is not a glamorous topic. And honestly, I don’t know, 30 years ago when I first got interested in this, it just seemed like somebody else’s problem, not mine. And honestly, because I’m not wired that way, I’m not a systems person personally, I’m a little a DD, not a lot. It was difficult for me to mow the lawn the way it was supposed to be mowed because after about five back and forth I wanted to do something else. But my point is because a lot of our leaders that are listening, because of your entrepreneurial spirit and because of the way you’re wired, maybe your Enneagram, your temperament, we’re sometimes anti-system because we mistakenly think that the systems are working against us sometimes, and the wrong system does at times feel like the enemy. We find ourselves in some ways working against our own organization. Suzy Gray (02:51): Yeah, Andy Stanley (02:52): It feels limiting. It feels limiting. We get hired into an organization and it feels like, oh, the systems, they’re not set up for real success. And so there’s a tension. But the reality is, and really I think I learned this the hard way after being surrounded by some very systems oriented people, that this is absolutely critical to success. The right systems actually enhance. They don’t impede creativity, and they definitely fuel innovation (03:16): And then help sustain innovation. They help change, and then the right systems help sustain change because at the end of the day, we say all the time, organizations do what they’re organized to do. The other way of saying that is the systems rule, the systems dominate because the systems, as we’re going to unpack in a few minutes, systems control behaviors, period, they just do. And we’ll give some illustrations of that. And the thing that got me interested in this formally, other than the fact that I kept bumping into the same problems over and over and kept fixing the same things that kept breaking over and over was our leadership team years ago, really like 25. So years ago, read Peter Sing’s book, the Fifth Discipline, which is not an easy read. And because it’s not an easy reading, because it’s a long book, it forced us as a team to stay on this topic because none of us were really systems experts. We just had a lot of good ideas we thought and we needed to implement them. And part of it was we were trying to change a paradigm. And every paradigm that needs to be changed is a system of systems. And if you just go in with vision casting and values and rah rah, again, the systems, rule systems, yeah, nothing happens. Nothing changes because systems really do create and facilitate and galvanize behaviors, whether they’re the right behaviors or not. So this is a really, really big deal. Suzy Gray (04:34): Yeah, it’s an important topic. And to get us started, Andy, let’s talk about why systems matter so much in leadership. I’ve heard you say many times that every organization is perfectly designed to get the results it’s currently getting. Can you unpack that for us in the context of systems and why you think leaders tend to underestimate the value? Andy Stanley (04:51): Yeah, this is just one of those awful things that we all I think want to resist and say, oh, that’s not true. But in some ways it isn’t absolute that your current systems, I would say to our podcast listeners, whether you’re running the show or you’re feel like you’re being run over by the show, that your systems are perfectly designed to get the results you are currently getting. So if you don’t like the results, you have to address it, not just at the personality level. We’ll talk about that in a minute because that’s always the first thing. We need a new president, we need a new manager, we need a new team, we need new people. And that can be part of the problem. But oftentimes it is the systems and your systems, my systems, our systems are perfectly designed to get the results we are currently getting, which means one of the best things a leader can do is be a student of organizations even outside their field that are effective and efficient in terms of simply getting things done. (05:47): Because again, when you see an organization large or small that they just execute, execute, execute. There are systems in place that facilitate that execution. So we can learn outside our field, we can learn inside our field. But again, your systems, I would say to our audience, just like our systems are perfectly designed to get the results we are or you are currently getting. Again, if we want to bring about change, well, we have to discover what our systems are because sometimes we really don’t know what’s operating in the background. And there are so many times that has happened here where I will be so frustrated and I’ll be frustrated with a person first, but I’ve learned through the years, don’t go after the personality. Don’t blame human nature. Begin the conversation with why did this happen? What’s running in the background? And so oftentimes I will discover things that are baked into our systems that are creating the behaviors that are problematic, and we just haven’t addressed those. Or somebody showed up and was given a job description, this is how we do it here, and we’ve been doing it that way forever. And it facilitates behaviors that work against what we’re trying to accomplish. And Suzy Gray (06:51): It’s easy to point to a person and harder to see the system that’s driving that person a hundred Andy Stanley (06:55): Percent. (06:56): And I’ll admit upfront, the further away you are from a problem, the simpler the solution appears to be. So I don’t want to oversimplify the solution, but it is obviously, obviously a systems issue, and we can blame people all day long in administrations all day long, but until somebody addresses the systems, that’s never going to be resolved. And that’s true of everything politically, nationally, internationally. And it’s true at home to all the parents out there, the behaviors that drive you crazy about your kids before you blame it on no frontal lobe development. Well, she’s 13. Well, he’s 16. Well, I was the same way when I was a kid. I mean all of that, there’s some reality and some truth to all that, but there may be systems in place. We discovered this. There may be systems in place at your home that are actually facilitating the behavior you’re disciplining your children Andy Stanley (07:44): For. Andy Stanley (07:45): And all those years ago when this became important to me at work, I went home and Sandra and I began to ask those questions, how are we accidentally facilitating behavior in our kids that we want them to change? So it’s everywhere. It’s invisible. Oftentimes in this discussion, we’re going to try to raise the visibility of organizational systems. Suzy Gray (08:05): One of the things that when you think about a system, one of the big parts of systems is in the hiring process as well, right? Andy Stanley (08:13): Yeah. Yeah. Suzy Gray (08:14): I mean, that’s a big part of something that could seem, oh, you just interview somebody and you make a decision, you hire ’em. But that requires a system. But that could be another one of those invisible things you don’t even think about. Andy Stanley (08:24): Well, I’m glad you brought that up, because it’s human nature to blame people. It just is. Well, if you have a good hiring system, there should not be anyone to blame technically, because you’ve hired great people. If you hire great people, they’re going to do great things. So if over and over you find yourself moving people out of positions or moving people out of the organization, you have a systems problem, you’re not hiring the right people. If you have a great interview and hiring system, then it will free you up from blaming people initially. Because wait a minute, if I’m always blaming people, I have to look in the mirror. Exactly. I hired or I facilitated a system that allows to bring these people into the organization. So if you have a robust hire interview and hiring system, before I go blaming people or personalities or human nature, Hey, what’s running in the background of our organization that’s creating this problem? Why am I constantly having to fix the same thing over and over again? So it is huge, and it is all about systems, Suzy Gray (09:26): So it’s a really big deal. But where do we even start? Andy Stanley (09:29): Well, I knew you were going to ask that question. And again, everybody listening is they’re smart. So we know how to contextualize generalities, but I want to try to be specific, but to some degree, this is oftentimes industry specific, but here’s some sort of general things to think about. Three questions to keep it simple. What’s working? What keeps breaking? What’s in the way? (09:55): What’s working? What keeps breaking? Where am I like that again, that again, that again, didn’t we already talk about that? We just spend three hours solving that problem. And then number three, what’s in the way? So real quick, what’s working what in our organization or what department or division, what requires so little maintenance? We almost forget about it. It’s just invisible, it’s just happening. I’ll give you an illustration here. We’re an events organization. I mean, we’re a network of churches, but end of the day, we’re in events. I mean, we have a giant multi-site event every single weekend with different content. In other words, we’re not a road show. We’re going to show up in different cities and do the same thing over and over and over. (10:38): That’s easy. Once you do it two or three times, the systems are in place, you’ve solved the problems. But we’re doing different things every weekend on a huge scale. So when I show up on a Sunday morning, there are so many things in place, whether it’s what’s happening in the parking lot, our guest services, our service programming team, rehearsals. I mean, there’s a dozen big things that are in place. Not to mention what’s happening down the halls with all of our children’s stuff, I don’t even think about those things because those systems are rock solid. They are not problematic. Now, if there’s an ice storm or if the electricity, I mean, there’s those kinds of things, but other than the big unexpected things, we have no control over those systems. So the question I have to ask is, okay, what’s working? What is working so well? I don’t even think about it. I almost get to the point where I expect it. And if I’m not careful, I don’t even express gratitude to the people that make it invisible. Well, in every organization, there are some of those things. So asking that question and then asking the question why? What’s behind the efficiency in those areas? Because again, as we’ve talked about, if we don’t do an autopsy on success, we don’t learn anything from our success. We’re quick to learn things from failures because it hurts. We don’t want to repeat it, (11:56): But we need to do autopsies on our success. Well, to all of our listeners, the areas that are running so smoothly, again, you hardly even think about it. There’s where some learning can take place because obviously you want to replicate that and ask the question, what’s transferable there? Why is it working so well there, but not everywhere else? And what can I learn not outside of our organization? What can I learn from inside our organization that’s transferable? So that’s number one. Number two, the obvious one is what keeps breaking? Where are the bottlenecks? The inefficiencies? What requires an inordinate amount of time? As I said, it’s that again, why are we talking about that again, that division, that department? Suzy Gray (12:32): Why did we already solve that? Andy Stanley (12:33): Yeah, Suzy Gray (12:33): Yeah, Andy Stanley (12:34): I thought we already solved it two or three times. (12:37): And in our organization, sometimes this comes up and I will say, didn’t we already talk about that? And because of how long I’ve been here, someone will say, well, Andy, that was four years ago. I’m like, well, it seems like yesterday, four days ago. So there are things that need maintenance. So there’s that. But other than that, the things that, just that again, and then number three, what’s in the way? And this goes back to what I said earlier, when we find ourselves working against the organization in order to accomplish what the organization has hired us to do, or what the organization is supposedly designed to do, that’s a systems problem. That is not a personality or a personnel problem. So another way of saying that is where are the unwritten rules that people are abiding by that get in the way of progress or the written rules? In other words, you dive in and somebody says, well, this is what I was told to do. And I’m thinking, well, I’m very frustrated with you. And then I discovered you’re doing what were told to do. You were told to do. Well, that’s back on me. I’m back in the mirror again going, why haven’t I been paying attention? So what are the unwritten rules? This is the way we’ve always done it. And what are the written rules that just haven’t been examined in a while? And people are in their mind, they’re doing a great job. And in my mind, why aren’t we? Suzy Gray (13:53): What’s happening? Andy Stanley (13:54): Yeah, why aren’t we moving faster? Again, what’s in the way? What’s working? What keeps breaking? What’s in the way? And lemme just say real quick, those three questions for those of you who have leadership teams that you lead or you’re creating content for, those are three great questions to start a conversation. Hey, Liz, real quick, in five minutes, what’s working so well? We don’t even think about it. Why number two? What do we keep coming back to? Why? And is there anything built in systematically that kind of gets in the way of what we’re trying to accomplish? What can we do about it? You drill down on those three questions. You are not going to come out of those meetings thinking about people. You need to move out of their positions necessarily. It will be, Hey, we have systems issues. Suzy Gray (14:36): That is so true and very helpful. So let’s talk about the relationship between systems and organizational culture. How do systems play into the kind of culture you’re trying to build within an organization? Andy Stanley (14:48): Organizational systems and organizational culture are definitely joined at the hip. I don’t think you can separate those, everybody, including me. We love to talk about organizational culture, but again, you can work to increase or improve organizational culture, but if you don’t address the systems behind it oftentimes is’ an exercise in futility. In fact, systems, and I said this earlier, maybe say it a different way. Systems actually determine our culture because our culture, organizational culture is how we behave. A culture is this is how we do it here. (15:22): This is how we communicate here, this is how we meet here, this is how we begin meetings here. This is how often we meet here. I mean, all of that is culture. So our systems determine our culture because our systems are what create behaviors. And culture really is behavior. Here’s an unhelpful illustration, but it’s this simple. Parking lots are a system and people who’ve never been to a particular retail outlet, they all come in the same way and they all park in the same place and they all park correctly. And one, there are no instructions. Andy Stanley (15:59): But Andy Stanley (15:59): That’s a system, and it determines the behaviors of everybody who come into that property. The same with doors. Why does everybody come through the door? It’s a system and it determines behaviors. And I know that’s kind of elementary, but the point is, as leaders, we can’t forget the fact that we are driving behaviors through our systems and our systems are our culture. So you kind of reverse engineer it, and that’s why you don’t blame people. And you don’t just try to shift culture. You have to ask the question, what creates the behaviors that creates the culture that defines our organization? And it really is systems. Suzy Gray (16:36): So let’s really bring it down to the organizational level. What are some organizational systems you can put in place that reinforce behaviors that you want? Andy Stanley (16:44): Let’s start with one that is super important to us. Innovation, not so much creativity. Creativity is an unusual pairing. You take two things that we’ve talked about that two things that don’t go together, you put ’em together to accomplish something that’s creative. And innovation is when it catches on. And now everybody is putting those two things together. And next thing you know, it’s just kind of normalized. So in an organization that depends on or that thrives on, or its profitability, depends on innovation. We have to ask the question, what organizational behaviors facilitate the discovery of innovation and facilitate innovation? And then back up and say, what can we put in place in the organization that creates those behaviors? (17:28): So it’s systems, behaviors, outputs, systems, behaviors. So as you think about, again, this is a bit industry specific. Years ago we were rethinking our values because they felt a little stale. They’d been around a while, and after about two months of talking through values, I came in and said, Hey, we’re not going to rethink values. I want us to talk behaviors. What are the behaviors that if everybody on our staff did these things, whether it’s three or six or nine or 12, what are the behaviors that if everybody on our staff did these things, it would facilitate our culture and our output and our success. So we shifted the conversation and we came up with six behaviors. So then we had to ask the question, if this is how we want people to behave at work, and when I say behave, I’m talking about both the practical work stuff and the personal stuff. Suzy Gray (18:19): Take it personally, Andy Stanley (18:20): Take it personally, make it better, make it better. These are some of our behaviors. Then we have to ask the question, what can we put in place systematically that will drive people? What are the lines in the parking lot? What are the exit and entry ramps on the highway where everybody just knows this is how you drive, this is how you get from one side of the city to the other. I mean, again, it’s that simple. Systems create behaviors to create the systems that facilitate the behaviors, that create the output. So for organizational leaders listening, somewhat long, laborious conversation with team members, what are the behaviors? Okay, what’s currently in place that get in the way of those behaviors, and what systems can we put in place to facilitate those behaviors? So an example that I think we are all pretty much familiar with is more and more organizations years ago began creating spaces in their buildings, in their office buildings for personal interaction, lunch rooms, collaboration spaces, collaboration spaces, coffee bars. Why? Well, we want there to be cross-pollinization of ideas and personalities. We want people to have a best friend at work. We want people to enjoy work. Okay, that’s a value. Alright, then what are the behaviors that facilitate that? Well, there needs to be collaboration space. So what can we do systematically to create the potential for collaboration that results in the friendships and the on and on and on we go. Andy Stanley (19:45): Yeah. Andy Stanley (19:45): So we’ve all seen this happen. Sometimes just putting words on it, understanding the sequence and then committing to it is what we need to do. Again, everybody listening smart enough to figure this out. Sometimes we just get lost in the muddle of why aren’t things working and what’s wrong with these people? Suzy Gray (20:01): Or I’ll deal with that later of a collaboration. Oh, I’ll just deal with that later. We got things right in front of us and we don’t realize that the things right in front of us could be facilitated and given when Andy Stanley (20:10): To, Suzy Gray (20:11): By collaboration, Andy Stanley (20:11): Why don’t these people get along? Why are we so siloed? Why? And all those things. And again, we don’t have to look far once we have words around it to see some companies that have large and small Andy Stanley (20:22): That Andy Stanley (20:22): Have figured this out. Okay, systems, behaviors, output. What are the behaviors? What are the systems that facilitate the behaviors? And where do we have systems in place that get in the way of the behaviors that facilitate our output? And all of that is culture, right? It Suzy Gray (20:39): Is. It all builds culture. Another place that I think this is really obvious is a lot of people say, oh, we want an organization that gives feedback. We an organization that we hear feedback from our employees. But that definitely requires a system, doesn’t it? Andy Stanley (20:53): Yes. And thanks to Billy Phoenix who oversees all of our, he’s the director of culture basically for our organization. He implemented a system of robust staff surveys, different kinds of surveys, different times of the year, targeting different groups of people. We’ve created a feedback system because we want to know what people are thinking. We also want to know what people are feeling. (21:15): Very few people are willing to walk into their boss’s office and say, lemme tell you what I’m feeling. Because it’s so tactile. Those one-on-ones are so practical at times. So again, if we want good relationships on staff, then we need to know what’s going on other than just anecdotal evidence. And so we created that system that has allowed us to shift some things to create more freedom for the behaviors that again, facilitate success. So yeah, evaluation system, feedback loops. Every organization has feedback loops. They’re not always healthy, but they are there. And if you want a robust, helpful feedback loop, that is a system you create. And once people understand the system and begin to participate in the system, that’s a behavior that then creates an output that facilitates progress. So again, I know I’ve said it over and over and over, but the sequence of these things really always goes back not to personalities, human nature, but what are the systems that are in place or should be in place, and what are the systems that are in the way of what we want to accomplish? And it is a constant monitoring process because what works today doesn’t necessarily work tomorrow. Suzy Gray (22:27): Well, and to the point you just made, the monitoring process is a system. Andy Stanley (22:32): You Suzy Gray (22:32): Have to implement a system to constantly monitor the behaviors that are going to shape your culture. Andy Stanley (22:37): Another example of this is, and we implemented a version of this when we first started the organization, and we have updated it several times since then. I didn’t want staff going home with unresolved interpersonal conflict at work. I didn’t want them to take that home. And part of it was in a previous employment situation, I just kept taking things home to Sandra and she’s like, I’m sorry, I can’t do anything about it. Fix for you is, there’s someplace else you can take this. And I don’t want to gossip. So here’s a behavior. We don’t want people to take their frustrations home day after day after day and nothing change at work. So that’s something that we want to see happen. So one option is to get up and do a lecture on, okay, if you’re a mature person, you’re not going to gossip about the people at work. And if you love your family, don’t go home. I mean, okay, right? All of that’s Suzy Gray (23:27): True. And then it’s like, what do I do with the frustration though? Andy Stanley (23:29): Yeah, exactly. So we need a system to create a behavior. So we created, we used to call it our staff coaching system where we appointed a half dozen. And as the organization’s grown, more people who are basically safe people to go to, who’ve been in the organization long and are mature enough to know how to coach an employee through an interpersonal relationship or conflict with their boss, with somebody that reports to them, to somebody in a different department with somebody at a different campus. So they have a safe place to take that somebody will coach them through the process of reconciling that. That is a powerful, powerful system that people take advantage of. And we monitor how many people take advantage of that. Nobody’s going to share what was shared in those conversations, but we do monitor how well it’s going and if it’s being used so we can update it. Well, that system has had a huge impact on staff behavior as it relates to resolving conflict at work. Instead of just saying, Hey, just go in there and talk to them, because some people are comfortable with conflict, some people avoid it at all costs. Some people are too comfortable with conflict. So again, all of these things are systems that impact behaviors that impact efficiency and output in the organization. Suzy Gray (24:43): Well, that is so good and so helpful. And honestly, the systems that we create will either propel our organizations or they’re going to hold us back. So now as we start, the year is a great time to evaluate our personal and organizational systems to make sure they’re setting us up for success this year. But Andy, that is all the time we have in this episode today. Andy Stanley (25:05): Yes. Hey, as always, thanks for listening. And before we leave, we do have one ask, and that is to subscribe to the podcast by subscribing you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep improving and bringing you great guests and great content to help you as a leader go further faster. Also, be sure to visit andy stanley.com, the andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary of our discussion today, plus questions for reflection or group discussion. And again, those three questions I gave you early on would be a great way to start your next team meeting. And of course, join us next week for our reverb episode where Suzy and I will dig even deeper into the topic of systems right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. Comments are closed.