By Allen Haynes • July 15, 2024 Listen to the podcast. Andy Stanley (00:05): Hey everybody. (00:06): Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy Stanley and I’m very excited because first of all, I get to host rather than answer questions. And the reason I get to host is because I have in the studio with me today, my friend of about 20 years. I don’t know Tim, Tim Elmore (00:22): 1997 I think it Andy Stanley (00:24): Was. Oh, that’s Reggie Tim Elmore (00:25): Campbell had a mentoring Saturday morning and I think we were both Andy Stanley (00:28): There. Wow. Oh, that’s right, that’s right. Way back. Anyway, Tim Elmore is in the studio with me to talk about, are you ready for this? The importance of generational diversity in the workplace. Lemme say that again. Generational diversity because we talk so much about diversity, and I promise you podcast listeners, this is going to be one of the most helpful podcasts we ever do and perhaps that you ever listened to because I don’t know of anyone else in the marketplace that’s talking about generational diversity, especially in the marketplace. So Tim, welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Tim Elmore (00:59): Podcast. Thank you. Great to be with you. Yeah. Andy Stanley (01:00): Tim’s the president and founder of Growing Leaders. He’s a bestselling author. He literally, this Isn’t Hype, is an international speaker. He’s a world renowned expert on generation Y and generation Z. And if you don’t know what those are, it’s a good thing you’re listening. Tim uses his research to equip leaders, educators, coaches, parents, to equip young adults with life skills and professional skills. And again, we’ve known each other for many, many years. The reason Tim is here today is a few months ago we did an event with our organization where we had five or 600 professionals for breakfast and one of our facilities. And after breakfast, Tim spoke for about 45 minutes on the topic he’s going to talk about today. And as I sat there, I was taking notes as fast as I could. I was feeling woefully behind in my leadership as it relates to this topic. (01:47): And then I thought, why have we not had Tim on the podcast to talk about this? So this is going to be a lot of fun. And so let’s just jump in. So Tim, again, we hear a lot about diversity in the marketplace, but you argue that it’s important for leaders and managers to understand generational diversity. So what is generational diversity? Even though I would imagine we can guess to some extent, and again, I am tempted to say why is that important? But I think as soon as most leaders hear the phrase generational diversity, they know it’s important. Why is it important and what do we do? Tim Elmore (02:19): Yeah, well, just like there is ethnic diversity, gender diversity, I’m seeing in the workplace generational diversity where there might be as many as four generations working together, or at least supposed to be working together, collaborating. But that 21-year-old intern is not at all relating to the 61-year-old veteran there. And sometimes we just avoid each other. Just like if you’re in a cross-cultural relationship, you’re in another country. Go, I can’t talk to that person. I don’t speak their language. I don’t have their customs. I don’t share their values. Bingo. We have different values, customs, and so Andy, you’ve thought this before I’m sure, but I feel like the phone, the smartphone has both connected us and divided. Somebody once said, when our phones had leashes, we were free. Now our phones are free and we have leashes and we’re tethered to each other, but we’re all banded with the same age group, kind of rather than saying, I want to mix it up with a 61-year-old or whatever. So I feel like we need to work Andy Stanley (03:16): On this. Those of us who’ve traveled internationally know exactly what you’re talking about. We see the person and we realize we’re not sure we can communicate with them, but we try anyway, don’t we? Yes. And Tim Elmore (03:24): We Andy Stanley (03:25): Work hard at it. Oh yeah. We talk louder and slower and we talk slower and we think the lights are just going to come on. Yeah, that’s right. And to some extent we do that cross generationally too, don’t we? Tim Elmore (03:35): Yeah, absolutely. And it’s almost funny if it weren’t sad how you hear stories of the older and the younger talking offline to us who are leading focus groups and going, oh my gosh, he has no idea. But I feel like, boy, if we could leverage the benefits of each generation, what could our organizations do? It would be amazing. Andy Stanley (03:53): Well, every leader listening wants to do that. I mean, there’s no disconnect. Anybody that’s disconnected from this tension isn’t leading. And anybody that wants to lead their organization into the future understands not only should they do this, we have to do this, but I’ll speak for my generation. It is intimidating. And I have three kids, they’re all in their twenties, and even when I am with them, I’m fine. But when I’m with their friends, I feel stupid. And at the same time, I think I’d like to hire all of them. They’re so confident and competent, but I feel kind of stupid. So let’s talk about that. When you did this presentation a few weeks ago, you talked about expectations within the various generations working today, some organizations have as many as you said four. This is amazing, four generations attempting to work together. Can you talk a little bit about the expectation piece? Tim Elmore (04:45): Andy, you and I probably have talked about this at some point in the past, but I feel like satisfying people is pretty much about managing expectations. Andy Stanley (04:53): So wait, wait. Say that again. That’s a big piece of this. Tim Elmore (04:56): Satisfying people is pretty much about managing expectations. Every new batch of, well, every new generation coming in has a certain expectation. Millennials brought a huge expectation, I’ll be the VP by 26 maybe, because we told ’em they were awesome for putting the fork in the dishwasher, that sort of thing. But now Gen Z’s a little different. They’re the ones behind the millennials. So I think if we understand expectations now we can mitigate the distance. And one thing I like to say, Andy, is conflict arises when there’s a distance between expectations and reality. Yeah. Andy Stanley (05:29): Say that again too. That’s so huge. Conflict arises Tim Elmore (05:32): When there’s a distance between the expectations Bob has and the reality of Bob experiences, and it gets bigger with the expansion of that distance. I don’t think leaders sometimes realize that’s why they went ballistic. It wasn’t that they lost the paperclip. It’s what has been happening for three months. You weren’t connecting with me. Andy Stanley (05:49): And if we don’t understand what the expectations are, we’re in trouble. And if we’re not able to distinguish between the categories of expectations with the diversity in the marketplace, we’re going to have trouble as well. And I think when I heard you talk about this, of course people came to mind, right? Different segments within our organization. And I realized, of course, I lead according to my expectations, don’t you? And I think, well, everybody expects what I expect and nothing could be further from the truth. So before we go down that rabbit hole, let’s talk specifically just for the sake of definition about the specific generations that you’re talking about. Tim Elmore (06:26): Okay. Well, depending on what social scientists you might read after some date, the generation slightly differently, but every generation comes of age. They move from school to career, backpack to briefcase with a set of experiences during their first 20 years. So the oldest generation that might still be working around would be the builder generation. They were born between 1929 and 1945. And they were builders because they were building during a very difficult time. My dad is a great example. My dad was born in 1930, so the first decade of his life was the Great Depression, the next five years, world War ii. So that shaped him. He’s frugal, he’s conservative, he’s turning the light off when he leaves the room and saving the rapper paper at Christmas. All those things that our parents did and taught us to do. So I think their paradigm when they came of age was just be grateful. (07:17): You got a job. It wasn’t find your passion. That was not even a phrase. It was just be grateful you got a paycheck. And my dad has said that to me, even though I started growing leaders, he said, just be grateful. You got a job. Alright, so then the next one would be the baby boomers. And that would be you and I, boomers were born between 1946 and 1964, and we were called Baby boomers because nine months after World War II was over, the maternity wards filled up. It was a boom of babies. 76 million kids born in 18 years. The Boomers grew up in a time of expansion, unlike the Great Depression. So I kind of give us the narrative. I deserve better. I deserve a better life than mom and dad had. And we did. We felt that way all through our growing Andy Stanley (07:58): Up. I’m going to take advantage of what they gave me, but I’m going to take it a step further. Exactly. That really was the expectation, and they were proud of us and we’re happy we could do that. That’s Tim Elmore (08:06): Right. I felt that from my mom and dad. I think did I too? And then Come The Baby Busters or Gen X. Gen X is the title that kind of stuck Andy with this generation, but they were originally called Baby Busters. They were born between 1965 and 1982. Some of you listening will say, that’s me. The reason Gen Xers were originally called Baby Busters is because their generation started at the public introduction of the birth control pill. So instead of a boom, it was a bust. They’re Andy Stanley (08:35): Lucky to be alive. That’s Tim Elmore (08:37): What you’re saying. Just be grateful you’re alive. Yeah, Andy Stanley (08:38): Be grateful. Yeah. That should be their mantras. That’s right. Be grateful we’re Tim Elmore (08:42): Alive. Well, in all seriousness, there was the birth control and there was Roe v. Wade in 1973. So you had 46 million in that generation, not 76 million. Andy Stanley (08:51): Yes. And that’s a big deal right there. Just the difference from 70 to 46 million births in the Tim Elmore (08:57): Us. Well, think about the economy, think about social security. I mean, that’s not the podcast topic, but this is huge ramifications on voting and Andy Stanley (09:04): Your system for lots of Tim Elmore (09:05): Things. So I gave the Baby Busters or Gen Xers, the life paradigm, keep it real. When they were growing up, it was a much tougher time from 65 to 82, the Vietnam War was going on and it was on tv. The Watergate scandal was happening, the gas lines were forming at gas stations. It was scary. And so basically as kids, they saw adults around them feeling a little more skeptical about politicians, a little more skeptical about business leaders in corporate America and so forth. So keep it real. Alright, real quick. After the Baby Busters or Gen Xers come the gen wires, which is the millennials, and I basically tag these as the people born in the eighties and nineties, 1983 to 2000, I gave them the life paradigm. Life is a cafeteria. Wow. And the reason I did Andy Stanley (09:53): Is because you don’t even have to tell us. Tim Elmore (09:55): Yeah, that’s right. It’s a buffet, isn’t it, of options. Andy Stanley (09:57): That’s right. Pick and choose. Yeah, Tim Elmore (09:58): That’s exactly Andy Stanley (09:58): Right. In any order you want and go back for seconds. Yeah. It’s start with Tim Elmore (10:01): Dessert and we’ve given ’em this. We customized their life, but it was pretty much, I’m making this up with my college experience. Three or four colleges for one Andy Stanley (10:09): Degree, or create your own degree now. Right? Tim Elmore (10:12): That’s exactly right. Make up your major. Yeah, this is true. I mean, it’s true with our music, we have a playlist of my personal favorite songs, one song at a time. So you see this everywhere you go. And then lastly, the youngest population we’re measuring today is Generation Z, following generation Y. One historian called them the Homelanders because their generation started at about the same time as the Department of Homeland Security. So Terrorism’s been a normal part of the conversation. Two economic down downturns since 2000. Racial unrest, uncertainty, complexity, just lots of things happening. So I have given Gen Z, these are the kids probably of many of the listeners, I’m coping and hoping so even though they might send out a silly Snapchat video, it’s a stressful time. There’s a lot of angst, there’s a lot of depression. So anyway, these are some of the patterns. (11:09): Now, one thing I would say I would love the listeners to be thinking about, as I just described the narrative of each one. What I notice is I look at all five generations is it moves from a narrative of caution over to confidence with a baby boomers back to caution, gen X, to confidence with the millennials and back to caution with Gen Z, I’m stressed out. I don’t know if I’m going to get into the right college. I don’t know if I’m going to get a good job. So even though that’s probably not true, they feel that way. It’s a little more Andy Stanley (11:35): Dark. When you presented this to the business folks in our organization a few weeks ago, you played some music. You picked the song that you felt like was thematic for each of these, for the last three actually. And I could just feel both the energy and the lack of energy in the room as it’s like our eyes open to, oh my gosh, you’re exactly right. Both the tone, the textures, the simplicity, complexity, and the lyrics of the music that characterize these generations. And it’s so very true. And of course there’s exceptions to every rule, but in general, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Tim Elmore (12:10): And I just think it’s important for leaders to know the narrative. This is not psychology, it’s sociology. So we have different personalities and optimist, pessimists, but this is a narrative of generation that we need to know as we lead them. I think for Gen Z, we need to be hope givers. I want to give you hope. You can do this, you can change the world. It’s going to be hard work, but you can do it. Andy Stanley (12:29): And you have to tell the millennials it’s going to take more than 15 minutes, or maybe it could take 20 to 25 minutes. Absolutely, yeah. Because their optimism. It is wonderful. Okay, Tim, what do we need to know? Because that’s a lot of information. Some of us have heard some of that before, but again, our listeners are asking the question I was asking that day, so what do I do? So give us a framework we can begin to use as we interact with the generational diversity. Tim Elmore (12:55): Yeah, good. Well, first of all, I think I need to admit that I’m going to go into interactions like you suggested earlier, expecting them to be like me. And I’ve got to stop that. I keep going back to that cross-cultural thing. If I’m in another country, I don’t expect that French man to be just like me or that Croatian man or that Russian man. So we’ve got to enter these saying what’s going on in their mind. And I like to use the phrase, we got to read ’em before we lead ’em. So it’s just a simple little nugget and it’s pithy and cliche. So let’s just take the different generations. So I think each generation brings a different value. So baby boomers, think about a baby boomer. They’ve been on the job a long time. Several jobs. Yeah, that’s right. Several jobs. And for decades. (13:39): Decades, not years. So we need to draw from the boomers if they’re willing stories from their career. They’ve experienced similar times, different economies, but similar economies. And so life coaching, they’re wonderful, wonderfully positioned to be life coaches and from experiences in comparable times, awareness of the pitfalls. They know all the things that happened in the seventies and eighties and nineties and first decade or the 21st century. So we need to look to boomers for that veteran story, that sage wisdom perhaps, that they could have at 59 or 60 or 61 years old for Gen Xers. I think it’s realism. I think it’s authenticity, remember, of Keep it real, was their narrative resourcefulness. I think they had to learn to be resourceful. Many of ’em were latchkey kids growing up, so they learned how to figure life out and just make it happen. They see the pros and cons very well. (14:29): They’re far enough into their career that they’ve got some knowledge about that. So we did seek that realism and authenticity from the Gen Xers. They’re often in management by this point for millennials, my gosh, confidence. They’re tech savvy. They’re very optimistic. They often do think they can change the world by noon on Friday, that sort of thing. And they’re very aware of their, think about it, they became young adults when social media was really on the screen, and they’re aware that with one tweet it could go viral with one post, it could go viral. So they’re aware of their influence. We need to leverage that as supervisors to help put them to use that way. So I think that’s huge for us just to realize there’s benefits to every generation. There’s not, well, there are liabilities, but we need to grab Andy Stanley (15:16): A hold of the benefits. So inviting them into the conversation at those four different levels would be, I mean, we’ve just created on-ramps or those three different levels. So for the boomers, tell me your story. In fact, share with us a bit of the story for the Gen Xers. Where do you see a lack of authenticity? Exactly. That may not be their word, but that’s the emotion. And then for millennials, give them opportunities and leverage their confidence. And the thing I love with the millennials that I work with, and one of them is living back at home. Now she finishes up graduate school, which we love is that sense of energy. And I can do anything because I need more of that sometimes. Can Tim Elmore (15:54): I follow back real quick? Oh, please. This very scenario you just painted. We just had a meeting in our office. So we partner a lot with businesses, with schools, universities, athletic departments. And we had a meeting where we purposely had four generations on purpose in the room. And the boomer was asked questions, just like you suggested, have we tried this before? What happened? But the millennial we’re saying, is there another app that just came out that we could use leverage for marketing, but we were able to seize the day because we had difference, not in spite of. So I think leaders need to know that. Andy Stanley (16:27): So as exciting as that sounds, collaboration can be a bit difficult. And I think sometimes the person sitting at the end of the table, which oftentimes in my case is me, can make it difficult again if I’m bringing my expectation to the table. And I want everything to be filtered through that. So what makes it so difficult and what can we do help us, Tim? Yes. Tim Elmore (16:50): Well, I have two thoughts and I hope they’re relevant here. When I talk to employers, oftentimes, not all, but oftentimes parents become a part of the conversation, meaning the young employees we’ve just hired, the parent continues to intrude. Well-intentioned, you might call ’em, well-intentioned dragons sometimes, but they get involved. I had Andy Stanley (17:13): This issue just for millennials and Gen Z. Tim Elmore (17:17): Yeah. So 18 to 34, 35. Oh, wow. So I know it’s crazy. One would think they would let go, but it’s a well-intentioned mama. But here’s a picture. So I just did an event for chief human resource officers, and one lady came up to me at the break and said, Tim, I thought this might be an anomaly, but it’s happened six times in the last two months. She said, I just handed a job offer to a recently graduated student who’s now a professional. And each of the six said, thank you. But then they paused and said, but now my mom needs to interview you to make sure you’re a suitable boss for me. Oh, wow. Now all six were ushered to the door. They didn’t get the job because mom wanted to. Why? (18:02): For the same reason. Could you have? Well, I got to be honest with you. I talked to a college student recently that said, my mom is like my agent. You know what an agent does? They negotiate. And that’s what mamas are doing. So not all the problem, but one problem is we need to let these kids grow up and become their own person, their own agency. I have agency here. So the other thing I would say, Andy, I think you’ve seen me do this, is I have created a couple of columns that tries to help leaders think through this issue. I call it our scene today. And in these two columns, there’s a left column, right column. If you’re trying to picture this listeners in your mind, on the left hand column, I offer five words that spell the word scene that simply describe our 21st century world that we’re in of high tech and smart technology. (18:47): You’ll immediately hear these words and go, yep, that’s our world. Today. Off to the right though, I try to offer the unintended consequences. What we didn’t see coming with this wonderful, smart technology. So real rapidly, the letter S and C reminds me, our world today is full of speed, and we love the speed at which things are happening. High speed internet access. Unfortunately, an emerging generation, not all, but many might think, well, because of that, slow is bad. I don’t like slow. I can’t even navigate slow. And by the way, I think I’m probably less patient than I was 20 years ago because of the high speed. But think about it. If you’re growing up in that world, our kids, we’re going to have to help them navigate slow because you and I both know some things happen, good marriages happen slowly. The letter C and C, our world today is full of convenience and we all love the modern day convenience as we enjoy. (19:37): But if I’m growing up in a world of convenience, I might draw the conclusion hard is bad. So the number one phrase that K 12 educators in America say they hear from students is, this is too hard. They tell their teacher that as if they can weigh in and teachers go, we’ve been doing this math equation for decades now, which may mean it’s just taking too long. That’s exactly right. They equate those two things. And I want to go into something else now because I’m bored. Yeah, the letter E and C, our world is full of entertainment and now it’s in our hands with us everywhere we go. If I grew up in a world of entertainment though like that, it’s easy to assume that boring is bad. Now, I’ll admit when I was 16, I didn’t like boring either. But what we know now, thanks to neuroscientists that we didn’t know then is this, our brains actually need boredom. (20:22): They see it’s in times of boredom when there’s space up there and there’s margin in our day that we develop creativity and empathy. Think about it, if I’m living in a world of noise and clutter and earbuds are in all the time, I’m not thinking about anybody else. I’m just trying to get through the day, and I’m thinking, this is maybe a young generation that are full of potential, but they need space. They need quiet. Maybe the letter N in scene. Our world is full nurture. And all I mean by that is we have nurtured the emerging generation, not all, but many. We’ve become safety obsessed helmets and pads and belts and everything else, Andy Stanley (20:56): And take away anything that’s potentially dangerous. Yeah, Tim Elmore (20:58): Absolutely. And if we do that, think about the message we might be sending. They might be drawing the conclusion risk is bad. Well, 72% of high school students in America, 72% want to be entrepreneurs. They don’t want to work for the man. They want to do their own gig, but they’re the most risk averse population we’ve ever measured. So that doesn’t go together. You know that you’re an entrepreneur, there’s risk involved. And then the last letter E, real quick, we live in a world of entitlement. We all feel entitled to perks and benefits, old and young. But if I grew up in a world of entitlement, it could be easy to assume that labor is bad. I shouldn’t have to work for this. Now, all I’m suggesting listeners in this is this. If you think about those words that I just described, slow, hard, boring, risk and labor all bad. Those are the very components that grow me into a good worker, into a good adult, into a good leader, into a good husband, into a good father. So I’m simply saying, our marvelous world of 21st century technology is stripping away the very elements that would naturally build life skills in us. So we may have to be more intentional in our equipping than we did 40 years ago. Andy Stanley (22:04): So what do we do with that? Because I think most of the folks listening are like, oh my gosh, I need to go home. I need to grab my kids or my grandkids, or get all everybody in the office together. So what I mean, you’re an employer and a father, and you’re sitting on a mountain of research. What do we do with that, especially in the marketplace, as we think about the fact that that framework you just described is the framework through which many of the folks we’re interacting with see the world and experience the world and experience us. What do you do Tim Elmore (22:38): With that? If I was forced to boil it down to one single idea, and there’s probably 50 that we could talk about, but it would be the notion or the term emotional intelligence. So when we were together at the organizational breakfast we had, I talked about Lieutenant Colonel Christopher Hughes, what a case study he is. Talk about that. So he’s an army officer, and he was in the second invasion at Iraq. And his assignment one particular year was to receive goods coming from America, food, blankets and clothes for the displaced Iraqi people that were in this particular village. And his job was to get it out, get it out to the people. Well, he knew a white American probably wouldn’t be the best person to Andy Stanley (23:18): Distribute. Tim Elmore (23:19): Yeah, yeah. What’s in this package here? So he thought with his fellow officers, probably the best person to give this to would be a cleric at the local Muslim mosque. After all, that’s the safe place for them to go. So he gets his troop, they start marching with their guns and packages, picture this marching toward the mosque. All the locals are thinking, oh my gosh, they’re going to bomb this place. So by the time they get to the mosque, it’s circled by locals with sticks and rocks, and they’re shouting out in Dari and Farsi language. Who knows what they’re shouting, but it’s a street fight ready to break out. Thankfully, Lieutenant Colonel Christopher Hughes is high in his eq. He quickly orders his troop to stop about 150 feet from the mosque. He tells ’em to point their guns toward the ground, so that’s vulnerable. He tells them to put their packages down, which might be bombs in the eyes of the villagers. Then he tells them to take a knee, the most vulnerable body position, I think you can get in. And then he says, look up at the faces of these people and smile Andy. In a moment’s time, one by one, everybody realized this is okay. They’re start dropping their sticks and their rocks, and finally they find somebody that speaks the language to come forward and explain, we’re here to help you, not hurt you. And it was Now that was, would you not say that was an emotionally intelligent leader? Andy Stanley (24:41): And again, in a foreign country where you, not only can you not speak the language, but emotionally, everything is going south quickly. And yet he was able to bridge that. And the application to us today Tim Elmore (24:55): Is when you see somebody at your office with a package and No, I’m just kidding. No, I cannot underscore enough. The work of Daniel Goldman and others who’ve written on this subject, emotional intelligence, is now a greater predictor of success in life than intelligence. EQ is more important than iq. Now, I want smart people working for me, but I need him to have high eq. So this is made up of Andy Stanley (25:18): Our, and obviously EQ is common language for all the different generations. Yes. Tim Elmore (25:24): Yeah, absolutely. Andy Stanley (25:25): How we get there may be different, but this is the common language. Tim Elmore (25:29): Here’s the other bit of good news. While IQ doesn’t really change a lot in your lifetime, EQ can be developed. It’s like a muscle. It can be built. So little strength and conditioning exercises in our disciplines can help us a lot so rapidly. There’s four elements according to Daniel written on this that make up emotional intelligence. It’s our self-awareness. So I’m aware of how I come across to others, our self-management. I can manage my emotions to do what I need to do, even when I don’t feel like it. That’s huge social awareness. So I look around me and I’m aware of how the relationships around me are connected or disconnected. And then finally, relationship management. I can manage the primary relationships of my life. I would want that in every spouse. I would want that in every worker. And if we can build that into our teams, oh my gosh, the comradery is going to step up Andy Stanley (26:21): Actually. And tell me if you think this is true, if we only coached around those four things, regardless of the demographic or the generational diversity, if we coached into or spoken to those four areas consistently, I would imagine that could potentially make all the difference. Because again, that’s common ground, that’s common need. And again, even the approach may be just a little bit different. Those are four things everybody understands they need. Absolutely. And I would imagine there’s enough connection that, again, regardless of who’s in the room, everybody’s going to be able to identify with those four things. Because even as you listen them and we listen, regardless of what generation you’re in, podcast listeners, you’re thinking, that’s who I want to marry. That’s who I want my kids to marry. That’s who I want to date. That’s who I want as an administrative assistant. That’s who I can trust. That’s who I want on the board. So again, there’s perhaps the common ground. List them one more time, those four, and then we’re going to wrap up this conversation. Tim Elmore (27:17): Alright. So it’s social awareness and relationship management. Wow, those are huge. Yeah. Andy Stanley (27:25): Hey, that’s all the time we have today. But Tim, thank you so much. Hey, would you tell our audience how to get in touch with you or how to find you online? Tim has some of the most extraordinary, most transferable leadership concepts I’ve ever found. He calls them and tell us how they can find habitudes. Tim Elmore (27:40): Yeah. Easiest place would be just to go to our website, which is growing leaders.com, growing leaders.com, and there’s free stuff as well as habitudes there and stuff for leaders. So that would be, if that’s helpful, that’d be Andy Stanley (27:52): Great. It’s extremely helpful. Thanks Tim. Well, to all of our listeners, I want to thank you for joining us and invite you to check out after you check out Tim’s website. Go to andy stanley.com, Andy stanley.com, where you can find this leadership podcast, the application guide that goes with it, and a whole lot of ottoher (28:07): Fun stuff. Comments are closed.