By Allen Haynes • February 10, 2025 Listen to the podcast. Suzy Gray (00:02): Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb, a conversation that digs deeper into this month’s podcast topic, all designed to help leaders go even further faster. I’m your host, Suzy Gray. Andy, last week we discussed why the best leaders never stop learning, and how staying curious keeps leaders relevant and innovative. Today, we want to take that idea further by focusing on something that can open a door to learning, which is listening. Why is listening such a critical discipline for leaders, and how does it connect to the idea of continuous learning and curiosity? Andy Stanley (00:33): Yeah. Well, that’s a big question. All your questions are big questions, Suzy. Yeah, and to back up a little bit, listening isn’t just a discipline. It’s actually the foundation of learning, right? (00:47): I mean, what and who you listen to will determine what you know and what you do. I know it rhymes, but this is something I say, what? And I tell our kids this, what and who you listen to will determine what you know and ultimately what you do. And as leaders, we’re surrounded by so much noise, news, opinions, competing priorities, and maybe often most damaging of all our own assumptions. That’s just part of the noise. So if we’re not intentional about listening, we risk only hearing what’s loudest and what appears to be most urgent, not necessarily what’s most important. And again, connecting the dots. If I can jump back a little bit, connecting the dots to last week’s episode, listening communicates curiosity and humility, right? Suzy Gray (01:29): Yeah. Andy Stanley (01:30): Listening is acknowledging that you don’t know everything and that you don’t assume you’re the smartest person in the room. And so in that way, listening has the potential to shape the culture of an organization or whatever it is that we’re leading. So if the leader is still learning, which means the leader is still listening, everybody else loses their excuse not to follow suit. So if you want to create a listening culture, which is a learning culture, we’ll talk about that in a minute. Then we have to model what it sounds like and looks like to listen. And again, hearkening back to our conversation last time, listening communicates that we’re curious and we grow when we listen and we learn when we listen. And since every organization should be a learning organization, every organization should be a listening organization and everything else, it starts at the top. Suzy Gray (02:19): And you have an example of that recently. I heard you tell a story of something that happened recently that was like, ah, so encouraging. Andy Stanley (02:25): And again, I hope this translates, but just a few weeks ago, I’m in a meeting with our directional team that’s of our organization. It’s about eight people. But because of our topic, we invited kind of a fourth tier staff member in, she’s like, I think 24, 25 years old, a young lady. She has no direct reports, but she plays a key role in what we were talking about is so about an hour in. She hadn’t said a thing, I don’t think she’s just sitting there about an hour in. We hit an impasse regarding this decision we were struggling to make. So I turned to her and I asked her directly, and I said her name. I said, what does your gut tell you? I mean, if you had to make this decision right now, what would you do? Just say it. Of course, she was so surprised. (03:10): Again, I’m not sure she had said anything of it at that point. She quickly recovered and she told all of us exactly what she thought the executive team ought to do and why. And she said it in the most appropriate way. And we took her advice, but that’s not the real story. About a week later, I walk into the office and she’s in our office talking to my administrative assistant. When I walked in, and as I was about to disappear into my office, she said, Andy, can I tell you something? I said, sure. And this isn’t a direct quote, but it’s almost a direct quote. She said, I saw a side of your leadership that most people don’t know about. And I was thinking, I hope this is good. Yeah, Suzy Gray (03:55): Brace Yourself. Andy Stanley (03:55): Yeah. And she said, asking me what I thought the organization should do the other day, I don’t think many people in your position do that. And she said, and that meant so much to me personally, but more than that, she said, this was so cool. She said, it gives me confidence in our organization, especially about our future. Suzy Gray (04:19): Wow. Andy Stanley (04:20): Now, honestly, I think that might be in the top five compliments that I’ve ever received. And the reason I say that is because of how important what she recognized is important to me. I want us to be a listening, learning organization. So anyway, that was a recent illustration of what we’re talking about. So being willing to listen to anyone. Again, we are aspiring to be the dumbest people in the room, so we should listen to the people there. Suzy Gray (04:47): Well, I love that story and I love the connection. A potential blind spot for leaders might be assuming that they’re already good listeners, that they already, well, of course, I ask people in the room what they think, but they really don’t. What are some signs that they might not be as at tuned in as they believe they are? Andy Stanley (05:03): Well, for one thing, if you’re doing most of the talking, you’re not doing much of the listening. And most of us like to hear ourselves talk, and most of us in leadership have important things to say. So that’s something to pay attention to. And if you really want to pay attention to that, you give somebody else in the room permission to score you on how, yes, on how much of the real estate you took up in the conversation. Not then, but later. Suzy Gray (05:29): Later. Andy Stanley (05:30): And then here’s the other thing, and this is something everybody can do that mitigates against dominating the conversation. Show up with questions, not just directives and answers. If you’re not showing up with some questions or asking questions, you’re not creating a listening learning context because questions, again, invite feedback questions, invite people to be involved. So again, don’t just show up with an agenda and announce things, show with questions and multiple layers of questions. But why do you say that? What do you think would happen if we don’t do that? Where did you get the idea? What do the rest of you think about that? And again, dipping into last week’s conversation. Another thing, if you react to ideas or suggestions that you don’t like, rather than express curiosity, you’re not listening. Reacting means you’re not listening. Suzy Gray (06:18): You’re shutting down, Andy Stanley (06:19): You’re shutting down and you’re hearing, but you aren’t listening. (06:22): If you take a suggestion or idea as a personal affront, again, going back to last week, that just means your identity is all wrapped up in the wrong things. Again, go back and listen to last week’s episode because defensiveness or justification is a sign you’re not really listening. And let me add this, and this is important, and this sounds like manipulation. It’s not manipulation. I think it’s just good leadership practice, especially in a conversation with multiple people, even when you are a hundred percent sure that what’s being suggested is a bad idea, be curious anyway, because remember this, the point of the meeting isn’t simply to make the right decision. You’re not just deciding. You are modeling. You’re modeling how to respond to ideas and other people’s ideas. You’re modeling that for everybody in the team. So always, always, always, just be curious. Two more real quick. (07:15): If all your meetings are like standup meetings, because you hate meetings, and a lot of us hate meetings, if your whole idea of a meeting is we got to do this quickly, I met with a gentleman who just retired from a really large organization over the Christmas break, and he was telling me what a bad leader he was. And I was kind of laughing like, oh, no. And he said, oh, yeah, he said, Andy, he said, all my direct reports, they had 15 or 20 minutes. That’s it. I know. I looked at him the way you’re looking at me. He said, I know that’s terrible leadership. He said, I just hated meetings. I’m like, 15 or 20 minutes. You can cover some things in 15 or 20 minutes. You don’t develop relationships. Definitely Suzy Gray (07:53): Not. Andy Stanley (07:53): You don’t generally learn a lot. Suzy Gray (07:57): You don’t foster a conversation in Andy Stanley (07:58): 15 minutes. No. Right? And some people are bottom line people. They can get to the bottom line. Some people need to circle the runway a few times. (08:06): You got to create space. So anyway, if all of your meetings are standup meetings, if you hate meetings and your direct reports, know that if you never schedule more time than you think you’re going to need, you probably aren’t creating a listening environment. And then the last thing when it comes to one-on-ones, I think it’s important to develop a list of three to five questions that you can end your one-on-ones with that invite, not just feedback around an agenda item, but that invite whatever that a person across from you may want to talk about but isn’t going to talk about because you haven’t asked. Now, here’s an illustration of that, Suzy, when we meet, you bring the agenda. And what’s your first question? Suzy Gray (08:49): What do you want to talk about today? Andy Stanley (08:50): Yes. So Suzy says to me, Andy, every time she’s got eight things we really need to talk about. And she says to me, what would you like to talk about today? Well, that’s great leadership. That’s why you’re really my boss because you lead me so well. But that’s a great question. When somebody sits down with you and maybe at the end of the agenda you’ve covered what you need to talk about, covered all the stuff, and then you say, Hey, what would you like to talk about today? That’s an open-ended question. Some others might be, is there anything you’d like? This is one of my questions I ask, is there anything you’d like to give more of your time to? But you can’t, in light of your current responsibility, somebody’s like, well, to be honest, yeah, here’s something that I’m giving 20% of my time to, but if you would let me give 40% of my time to it, I think we could make progress. (09:37): Well, depending on your relationship with your direct reports, that may not be something they’re comfortable bringing up unless you think they’re lazy. Or another one is on what’s your general take on staff culture right now? Because again, as a leader, everybody’s on their best behavior around the leaders and the employers. But hey, there are things going on in our staff culture I’m not going to know about unless somebody tells me, because again, I’m just not going to see it or perceive it. So hey, so that’s a good one. Now I’m asking their opinion, is anything bugging you these days or is there anything I can help you with? That’s another one. So anything in those one-on-ones that says, I want to listen to you and I don’t want to set the agenda. What do you want to talk about? Suzy Gray (10:19): I want to create space for you. Create space. Yeah. Andy Stanley (10:21): Yeah. It’s so good. And while we’re on the topic of listening, here’s an illustration that’s a little bit off topic, but is super important to me about, I don’t know, three months ago I walked into the kitchen and Sandra is stirring up this drink that she’s going to drink before coffee, which that means it’s important. (10:38): It’s before (10:38): Coffee. And I’m like, what is that? She said, it’s called Ag one, and some friends of mine are drinking this. And she started telling me about how wonderful it is and it tastes good and how healthy it is. And so I pick up the can and start reading the ingredients. So I’m like, oh, yeah, whatever. So I don’t know, three, four weeks later, which is, I don’t know, three months ago I started drinking AG one. And it is amazing. It’s amazing. And so I don’t know, sometime after that, they reached out to us and asked us if we would run an ad for them. I’m like, heck yeah. This is a product that we use every single morning. I grab one scoop, I mix it with water. Every once in a while I’ll put a little orange juice in there. But actually, it tastes great all by itself. (11:21): It’s easy to do. It’s super important for supporting energy digestion, the immune system. It’s a small thing to do, and it’s so important to us. I drink it before my coffee. Did I mention that? Yeah. That’s how important. Yep. And here’s the thing. We are believers, and here’s the cool thing. Ag one is offering new subscribers a free $76 gift. When you sign up, you’ll get a welcome kit, you get a bottle of vitamin D three K two, and you get five free travel packs in your first box. And yes, we take this with us when we travel. Now, it is that much of a good habit for us anyway, so make sure you check out drink ag one.com/alp. That’s drink ag one.com/alp for Andy Stanley leadership podcast to get this offer. This is a great way to start your new year on a healthier note. And now let’s jump back into today’s podcast content. Suzy, do you drink Ag one? Suzy Gray (12:21): Oh, okay. Not yet. But apparently we’ve got a really great offer. Andy Stanley (12:24): I’d take advantage of. You’ve got a really good offer. Suzy Gray (12:26): That’s right. Andy Stanley (12:27): I think our producer does. Suzy Gray (12:30): Now. He does indeed. Allen does drink AG1. Andy Stanley (12:32): He’s a fan. So this is the real deal. Suzy Gray (12:33): This is the real thing. So back to today’s content, Andy, you said that listening isn’t just about hearing what people are saying, it’s about what they’re not saying. Can you unpack that idea a little bit more? Andy Stanley (12:45): Absolutely. Often what isn’t being said is just as important as what is being said and engaging or inviting people into a conversation that they may be hesitant to engage in, even if they’re sitting around the table like I did with the young lady, where again, she wasn’t saying anything, but I thought, well, she’s fresh eyes. She’s fresh ears. I want to know. I want to know what she’s thinking. (13:07): So inviting people into the conversation who have not been a part of the conversation is a huge part of that. And of course, we never want to pick people on the spot, but if they’re sitting at that table, they’re sitting at that table for a reason. So if you’re having a creative team meeting and not everybody’s contributing to the meeting, it’s worth asking yourself why not? Are they disengaged? Do they feel like their ideas aren’t being valued? Or do they just need to be invited into the conversation because of their personalities or their temperament? So listening isn’t just about words, it’s about observing behavior, tone, the dynamics of a group. It requires a level of curiosity that just goes beyond the surface. So again, we have to be appropriate about these things, but some people like to do a lot of talking. Some people don’t want to say anything. But my goal or our goal, again, if we have the right people in the room, is to leave the room with all the cards on the table, all the ideas on the table, all the opinions on the table on. That’s the only way you make good decision. But I’ve got to communicate as the leader that I’m actually listening. I’m curious so much so that I’m not going to let anybody get by with not contributing, Suzy Gray (14:12): Not participating. Andy Stanley (14:12): Yeah, not participating. Or I have them at the table. Suzy Gray (14:14): That’s right. That’s so spot on. I mean, being able to identify that disengagement is critical, not just for meeting contributions, but overall team unity. We found that within our organization of where you’ll have people that regularly don’t choose to speak into conversations, not because they’re not interested, but because they’re more reserved, and that’s just not their temperament. But there’s times that you really need to hear their voice. And pausing and inviting them specifically to speak into it is so important. And it creates team unity. It really, really does. Learning to listen well will obviously benefit how leaders lead. But what’s at stake if leaders don’t prioritize listening? Andy Stanley (14:53): Well, I think that the cost is massive, and we just touched on these, but when leaders don’t listen, we potentially miss out on great ideas. We are forced to make decisions with partial or incomplete information, and we create disengaged teams. Because if I don’t think you’re going to listen to me, I’m just going to shut up. After all, why bother? Right? Why bother? Yeah. Leaders who refuse to listen are eventually surrounded by people with nothing helpful to say, because they’re just not going to show up. Of course, none of that sounds like a formula for success, does it? Suzy Gray (15:23): No, it doesn’t. So Andy, as we wrap up, any final takeaways you’d like to leave our listeners with? Andy Stanley (15:29): Yeah, I would just say that listening is absolutely essential. It is a strategy for success, and it’s the foundation of leadership because leaders are learners, and you’re not learning if you’re doing all the talking. And listening is not passive. It’s an active discipline that requires humility and patience, curiosity and intentionality. So my challenge to all the podcast listeners today is simply this. In your next meeting, come prepared with some specific questions and listen one layer deeper, follow up initial questions with a secondary question, and pay attention to what’s being said and pay attention to what’s not being said. Because when you listen, you learn. And when you learn, you lead better. Suzy Gray (16:12): Ah, that’s such a good takeaway, Andy. Well, thank you for digging deeper into the power of listening and how it drives learning. And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us for this episode of Reverb. 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