By Allen Haynes • January 20, 2025

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Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast where we help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy, and today our topic is corporate culture and to ensure that this month’s podcast will actually help you go further faster. My special guest is Ginger Hardage, who you may know as the senior Vice President of Culture and Communications at Southwest Airlines during her 25 year run. We’re going to talk about that. Well, Southwest Ginger led the team responsible for building and sustaining that legendary culture that we are all familiar with. We either encountered it or we heard about it until honestly, we were tired of hearing about it because it made many of us feel like we have fallen way behind in creating an energetic culture. Anyway, so for sure we have an expert in the room when it comes to corporate culture. Thanks for joining us, ginger.

Ginger Hardage (00:54):
Andy, thank you so much. My first encounter with you was in person, was backstage at Leadercast, and I felt no pressure to be there in front of a legend and about to be presenting in front of thousands, but no surprise, you were encouraging and just set the right tone and boosting others’ confidence just comes naturally to you.

Andy Stanley (01:18):
I can’t imagine that anyone needs to boost your confidence, but thank you for saying that. It’s always interesting who we meet in green rooms, isn’t it?

Ginger Hardage (01:28):
It is. It is. And I usually meet people that I listen to their podcast, I read their books, and so it’s always such a treat.

Andy Stanley (01:37):
Yeah, I actually call those folks my green room friends because I only see them in green rooms. It’s like, oh, there’s those famous people I only see in green rooms and we act like we know each other and then we never see each other again until there’s an event. Well, anyway, again, thanks so much for giving us some of your time. Before we jump into the content, I would love for you to catch our audience up on what you’ve been up to lately. You left Southwest Airlines I think in 2016, is that right?

Ginger Hardage (02:02):
That’s right. 2016.

Andy Stanley (02:03):
That’s right. And then you started your own company around some of the takeaways that you discovered. We’re going to talk about some of those as it relates to culture. So just catch us up and then we’ll jump into this content.

Ginger Hardage (02:15):
Yeah, certainly. I started a company called Unstoppable Cultures, and it’s all about helping create cultures of enduring greatness, so focusing on other organizations and sharing those lessons learned. And then also based on my volunteer activity with Ronald McDonald House through the years, I’m now the global chair of Ronald McDonald House Charities, which is now definitely a global organization and in countries across the world,

Andy Stanley (02:44):
You have developed this talk or this content around what you call the five Lies of corporate culture. And I want us to talk through those in just a minute. But first, before we do that, stepping back into your former career culture and development of culture and protecting culture has been a common thread throughout your career. So I’m just interested, I don’t even know if this is a good question, why culture? How did you get engaged in or how did you become so fascinated, I guess, with corporate culture? And the reason I ask that is every leader listening is involved in some sort of corporate culture. An organization never has to think about it or talk about it, but they have one, every organization has one. But for you, this wasn’t just a, oh, we have one. This became a passion that again, you’ve carried with you even after you left Southwest Airlines. So talk just about how did this become such a big deal to you, so much so again that this continues to be something you love to talk about?

Ginger Hardage (03:44):
Well, you certainly hit upon it, Andy, because every organization has culture and it can either be one that they create or it’s one that just happens by default. So what I’m interested in is organizations being intentional and creating the kind of culture that’s going to drive your organizations forward. So we’ve all probably worked at some sort of dysfunctional culture at some point in time, but I’m talking about the kind of culture that will drive job applicants. People are going to want to come work at your organization where your employees are going to act like owners and be a part of driving your business results and your tenure is going to increase with those employees. And then when looking for being able to create the kind of magic, when the purpose of an organization can match up to what an individual does in that organization and drive the results of the organization forward in helping organizations find that magic inside their culture.

Andy Stanley (04:49):
Well, one of the things that happened at Southwest Airlines is what you just touched on. Somehow you and the people around you were able to use your term magically combine the personal passions of employees with the passion and the unique culture of Southwest Airlines. So it’s as if you, obviously the hiring process was part of that because you were able to hire the right people that again, synced up with what you were trying to accomplish. But backing up just a little bit, when it comes to young leaders specifically, and again this is a little off topic, but I would love for you to weigh in on this. A lot of young leaders I know coming to our organization and they just haven’t lived long enough to discover their purpose. It takes some time. It’s a bit like maturity. You can’t mature without time. It’s necessary. And I think in terms of discovering personal purpose, the same is true. So what was your experience with young leaders because you harness the energy of those young leaders who were searching for purpose while at the same time you’re trying to overlay a corporate purpose on individuals who are still trying to find their purpose. How did you manage that tension? Because it’s a tension that I feel like we have to manage.

Ginger Hardage (06:02):
Well, Southwest Airlines had a purpose from the very beginning and a great culture. It was founded in 71 by Herb Kelleher and also a woman named Colleen Barrett. And they worked from the very beginning to put a firm culture in place. And one of the things that we always worked on at Southwest was understanding our strengths. And the organization has gone even deeper on that. Not only does the organization know all of its strengths as a company, but helps the individual focus on their strengths either through strength finders, Myers-Briggs, other ways. So that’s what I recommend for organizations is to help your employees find their strengths. And we’ve all heard the term right seat on the bus, helping those individuals find the right seat on their bus. So we always talked at Southwest Airlines about our purpose and our purpose was to connect people to what’s important in their lives.

(07:00):
And we did that through three ways, friendly, reliable, and low cost area, travel and friendly. That translates providing hospitality at every point, reliable. That’s the pilot or the employees at the airport are going to make sure your flight’s on time and then low cost because you can’t have low fares without having low cost and looking at employees looking after those low cost in every possible way. So it’s helping those employees get into the organization, find the right seat on the bus, and that’s one things we really encouraged at Southwest. We didn’t expect people to come in and I’m going to be a flight attendant forever. They might decide they want to do that, but if they want to go and get training in another area and take on another role at the organization, that was highly encouraged. And I think we’ve all worked at organizations where you come in and it wasn’t encouraged for you to be in different areas, but as we know and as we’ve learned over time, that makes employees so much more valuable if they could have spent different times and learning and adding value in different levels throughout the organization.

Andy Stanley (08:12):
And then the longevity connected to that, obviously you basically in a positive way recycle culture and reinforce culture because the longer people are there, obviously the more entrenched they are in the culture and that trickles down through the rest of the organization. I want us to jump into these five lies that you’ve identified that relate to corporate culture. And as I have heard you talk about these and as I’ve reviewed these for our conversation, they are always relevant and I think they’re relevant for every organization. So let’s jump in. The first one is culture. The first lie is culture is fluffy. We have both heard this so many times. Why talk about it? Why meet about it? Why read books about it? It’s too soft, it’s intangible, we can’t measure it. What do you say?

Ginger Hardage (08:58):
Well, I say I get it. If you think culture is all about having a ping pong table or balloons or things like that, that is not the kind of culture we’re talking about. There’s certainly nothing wrong with a ping pong table or balloons, but I’m talking about the kind of culture that can drive your bottom line and improve your business results. When we think about great corporate cultures, I think some of the organizations that I often hear about are Chick-fil-A, which is number one in financial performance in the casual restaurant category. Trader Joe’s, again, number one in consumer preference. And then of course my favorite Southwest Airlines, which is 47 years of consistent profitability. So these are companies that start their drive for business results with their employees. Those happy employees are going to take care of the customers and the shareholders are and stakeholders are going to be taken care of. So that’s what I’m talking about in terms of a kind of culture that isn’t fluffy and focuses on business results.

Andy Stanley (10:06):
And again, for as you mentioned upfront, those of us who have worked in healthy cultures, you can’t necessarily define it, you just know it was healthy. If you work in an unhealthy culture, it’s easier to define because the problems are so they surface so quickly. And a healthy culture, sometimes we don’t even recognize how healthy it is because again, it’s more drama free. But here’s the question that entrepreneurs are going to ask and I would be tempted to ask if I was a bit more skeptical is, okay, that’s great, but honestly, how does that translate into profit? I mean, what is the trickle down? Because the things we can count obviously get our attention and usually keep our attention because we can count them. It’s how we measure our progress. Measuring progress in terms of culture, it’s very difficult to do because again, it’s not unnecessary, but it’s just so oftentimes intangible. So in your experience, what’s the connection or what are the connections between a healthy culture and profitability? And then if you want to just go from there and talk about how you go about creating healthy culture.

Ginger Hardage (11:12):
Right. Well, I think you have to focus on your return on culture. Just like you focus on your return on investment, you’ve got to focus on your return on

Andy Stanley (11:21):
Culture. And is that measurable?

Ginger Hardage (11:23):
It absolutely is. And it depends on what you’re trying to change within your organization. So one of the things a lot of organizations are focusing on is retention, and that is measurable, and that’s directly tied to a strong culture because I’ve worked with an organization that wanted to improve their culture, but they had to first start with improving their retention. So what needed to change in their organization to allow them to focus on their retention and customer satisfaction is another thing that’s directly tied to culture. How are our employees delivering that great customer satisfaction? We have to listen to our employees as well because sometimes that lack of customer satisfaction could be based on a bad policy. So how do we change that policy to make it possible for our employees to be able to give that great customer service? And how are we encouraging that? And I’ll talk about storytelling more later, but one of the ways we encourage that great customer satisfaction results and delivery at Southwest was to continually tell stories about it, about the customer letters that might’ve come in and what they were saying that our employees did that made such a difference in their lives and made them want to come back to Southwest Airlines. So how are we sharing those stories about those results within our organizations?

Andy Stanley (12:51):
So customer satisfaction and retention, I mean those are two super concrete ways, but I think we all pay attention to, but I don’t know that we necessarily correlate those to the health of a culture, but you’re absolutely right are trickle down. Those are overflow or reflections of corporate culture. So that’s really helpful. What do you say to the person who says, well, okay, I inherited a culture, I walked into a well-established culture. It’s not a good one, it’s not a healthy one. But it seems so enmeshed both in terms of the personalities, the history, is it realistically think that I can change the culture of an organization? Can you just give that group of people a little bit of hope before we jump into number two?

Ginger Hardage (13:35):
Yes. And I think especially if you’re the leader of the organization, you can do a lot to set the tone for the organization because nothing can turn an organization toxic faster than the leader not setting the example. So a wonderful time to change culture is if you’re coming in as a new leader and setting the tone for what you expect by your visibility in the organization, by setting your expectations and modeling the values that you actually want other people to follow. The other thing I’d say to anyone really trying to work on their culture is to look at your level of communication. How are you communicating in the organization? And that’s one thing I think a lot of companies have recognized during the pandemic is the need to increase their communication more. And I’ll give the example of Southwest Airlines, the CEO of Southwest Airlines.

(14:30):
Gary Kelly, when he became CEO in 2004, he started a weekly message to employee. So he would back in 2004, would listen to it on our flip phones, right? But he’s carried it forward all the way to today where employees can listen to the message from the CEO, they can read the message. But during the pandemic on top of that weekly message, he also sent out over 60 videos. And I don’t think that rate is going to slow down because it was another way to reach employees directly to any organization looking at how to improve their culture. Look at your level of communication and how frequently you’re out there communicating to your employees on all your channels.

Andy Stanley (15:21):
That’s a great reminder for all of us because that kind of communication never feels mission critical. It never feels urgent. It rarely even feels important, but it may be the most important thing we do. So that’s a good reminder. Okay, let’s jump into line number two. Line number two is culture is someone else’s job. Culture is someone else’s job. And the reason I would be tempted to believe that is because culture doesn’t even seem like a job. It seems like a responsibility, but I don’t know how to do it, so somebody else is going to have to do it. So lie number two is culture is somebody else’s job. Talk about that one.

Ginger Hardage (15:58):
Well, actually in the most healthy organizations, culture’s, everyone’s job, but it is also, it’s definitely a requirement for leaders. Again, and I’ll use the same phrase acting like owners. That’s what we want all of our employees to do, but our leaders are the ones who set the tone and making sure that culture is a top priority. And so one of the things we did, you can add it to your job description, and we did that at Southwest I every year had my job review with the CEO and how I led the culture was part of my job description. But so was it for the airport director in Amarillo, was that individual leading the culture of the organization that was on his or her job description as well? So one metric, all of us as leaders can look at is look at our calendars. How much time are we actually spending interacting with our employees?

(17:01):
Whether that’s taking that 30 minute break and when we can now that we’re coming out with the recovery and the pandemic, how are we going out and doing that face-to-face time with our employees? How are we out there? And so the great example of Gary Kelly going out not only his 17 years of that weekly message, but amping it up and sending out those videos with increasing that face-to-face communication and how other organizations are doing it. So we all have a culture, let’s make sure we’re not doing it by default, and we’re being very intentional by going out there as leaders.

Andy Stanley (17:46):
One of the things that I’ve noticed, and I’ve said this to leaders before, I’d love to get your reaction. Our organization’s 25 years old and I’m a founder. So the longer I’m in our culture, the less aware I am of our culture. It’s just the temperature of the room for me. A new employee comes in or we hire somebody new and they’re suddenly stepping into our culture. It’s like stepping into a room that’s a different temperature, right? They’ve not adjusted. So new people are very aware of the culture as they are trying to transition from whatever culture they came from or if they’re right out of school, it’s their first marketplace culture. So because you were there 25 years, what did you do to ensure that you were aware of the culture, not just part of it, and had grown so accustomed to it? Again, you lost your awareness, the more time in creates less awareness of, but somehow you were able to avoid falling into that trap because you seem to stay on the cutting edge of culture. You sensed the positives, the negatives, somehow you were able to feel it and not just become a part of it. Does that make sense?

Ginger Hardage (18:53):
Total sense. And one of the things we did at every one of our onboarding sessions, when you’re bringing in new employees, we would make sure one of the leaders spent time with those employees. That’s a great way to reconnect and it really causes you to feel the culture all over again when you’re out there sharing it with new employees. So in an onboarding session, the leader who’d been there for 30 years went into the class and talked about what their experiences were and also reconnected with those employees. So it’s that leadership visibility issue

(19:32):
On how we are going out there as leaders spending time with employees. But it’s also, if you’re in a larger organization, you may need to use other tools such as serving to stay in touch with employees. And one of my favorite questions in serving is how would you describe your job at your company? Is it just a job? Is it a stepping stone to something else you want to do? Or is it truly a calling? And as organizations, how are we creating an environment where employees can find their calling? And so that’s one of the things we always try to do at Southwest is help people find their calling and help leaders stay connected, but through visibility by going out in the organization

Andy Stanley (20:21):
Frequently. Yeah, we have an environment we call a align that we require new employees to go through. And then every three years, people who’ve been here for a while have to go back through it. And part of that is what you just said. Those of us who are been around for a while, we actually teach the fundamentals of the organization, go over the corporate documents. But one of the things we teach is the culture. And every time I do my part, I have two sessions that I do. Every time we do a line by teaching culture, it reminds me of our culture and it reminds me sometimes of where I’m allowing it to slip. So I think again, this is a great reminder for organizational leaders to put themselves in a place with new employees, especially where they’re having to teach these things. Because if you teach it, you’re going to have to do it right?

(21:09):
I mean, there’s built in accountability, what I’m saying to new employees, this is how we do it here. And then I walk away going, are we still doing it that way here? Should we keep doing it that way here? So that kind of interface is super important. Before we drop into this third lie, talk for just a minute about how important it is to define the culture of an organization, even though culture is very difficult to define, but if it’s not defined, then of course it’s someone else’s job. It’s so undefined, I don’t even want to mess with it. And if it’s undefined, it does feel fluffy. So at Southwest Airlines, and even with your work with the Ronald McDonald House, clearly you have something in mind when you think about the culture, but it has to be spelled out in such a way that it can be transferred in a conversation or transferred with an icon or transferred through values or phrases.

(22:00):
So when you think about defining or clearly defining a culture, how did you do that? Or what does that look like? Because that kind of sets us up for this third lie because the third lie is, well, our values are on the wall. And what I say to organizations all the time is, Hey, is what’s on the wall happening in the hall? Because if what’s on the wall isn’t happening in the hall, there’s no transference. And oftentimes it’s the culture that connects those grandiose values to the daily activity of the organizations. So in your corporate experience, did you define culture with an icon, with a sentence, with words, with values? Was it a combination? So when people came to work with you and you wanted them to protect the culture, how did they know exactly what you’re talking about?

Ginger Hardage (22:50):
Well, I think you do it through defining your values. And a lot of organizations, they spend time, they go do an offsite, they spend the time identifying their values, and then they put them up on the wall and then they go about the business of work and never refer back to the values.

Andy Stanley (23:10):
So the values don’t ever actually inform the culture. Is that correct?

Ginger Hardage (23:15):
They get too busy, they forget about it, and they never refer back to the values, and they’re just there on the wall and half the organization couldn’t even repeat them. So once you spend all the time defining your values and the behaviors that go behind and alongside those values, how reinforcing them in our organizations, so the best in class organizations spend time at every touchpoint through hiring, onboarding, training, recognition, all the way to performance evaluations. And they spend time talking about their values in every phase. So all cultures actually start before we hire in how we’re presenting our employer brand and what kind of employees we’re trying to bring into the organization. And the next way we do it is we make sure we’re hiring tough so that we can manage easy. We’re taking the time to hire the right kind of employees, the right kind of skills, but also it’s got to be the right value fit.

(24:23):
And if we do that right, our retention rates are going to soar. So best in class organizations, they continually reinforce their values. And an example I gave before was that weekly message that the CEO, Gary Kelly of Southwest Airlines has been recording since 2004. He ends every one of those with a shout out to how one of the employees is living the values. So that’s one of the weekly ways that he’s reinforcing it and talking about the values every week. And not only is it a great example for that employee and a pat on the back, but it also prescribes for everyone else something they can do to live the values and models, the kind of behavior that the company is looking for.

Andy Stanley (25:14):
So the lie is, well, our values are on the wall. So clearly in your management style, leadership style, there’s a relationship between organizational values and culture. So the values come first and then the way the values are lived out or experienced, I guess then that defines or shapes the culture. Is that the connection? Am I saying that right?

Ginger Hardage (25:36):
You’re saying that absolutely, because those values, and the best way to do it is describe how those values translate into behavior. So one of the things we talked about at Southwest is looking in our values, we were looking for employees who had a warrior spirit, a servant’s heart, and a fun loving attitude. And the stories that we told and the lessons that we taught within the organization lived out those particular values.

Andy Stanley (26:08):
So one of the things that frustrated me as it relates to the tension around this lie is the fact that so many times the values went in a file, or again, they went up on a wall or a plaque, and then to your point, everybody gets busy. And so we came up with our six employee values, and instead of putting ’em on the wall, we put ’em on a cube so that we could put ’em on everyone’s desk. And to your point too, we attached a question to each one of the values because the value statement is somewhat stagnant, but when you attach a question to it, and I think you mentioned that it forces me to personally engage. So one, our staff values is make it better, make it better, make it better where you work, make it better based on what you see.

(26:49):
And the question of course is am I making it better? Well, I’ve been pulled into the discussion of whether or not I’m actually living out this value. So I do really think it’s important. That’s why I wanted to pause on this, that people understand that values and culture are connected, but as leaders, we have to make that connection. Otherwise we can have the perfect values. But if they’re not lived out and if we don’t give people handles, people aren’t automatically going to figure that out for themselves. So I think handles and applications as it relates to values is a big part of shaping culture. And then for folks in our situation who feel responsible for the culture, it gives us something to go back to that’s concrete. Is that what you’ve

Ginger Hardage (27:31):
Experienced? Experienced? Yes. We have to have those behaviors. We have to continually talk about it. And that’s the only way to enforce it if we’re just talking about, A lot of organizations have integrity, for example, but what does that mean? How are you living it and how are you reinforcing that? So I like to say culture isn’t a faucet that you can turn on and off. You can’t just have those values on the wall and never refer to them again, you’ve got to continually build it in to every point along the way in the employee journey. So all the way from before you’re bringing them in all the way to performance evaluation. How are you talking about how that individual’s living the values inside the organization every day?

Andy Stanley (28:19):
That’s great. Alright. The fourth lie is if I empower my employees, I might lose control. If I empower my employees, I might lose control. And the truth is you might, but it’s worth it. Talk a little bit about this. This is a really big deal because our unwillingness to empower other people becomes the lid. It can become the lid to the whole organization, but it certainly becomes a lid to our influence in the organization. So this is huge.

Ginger Hardage (28:49):
Yes, we’ve all, and I like to describe this as freedom in a framework because a lot of leaders feel that they’re going to lose control if they give their employees power, but boy, they’re going to miss out on so much individual contribution and empowerment. So if you look at freedom in a framework, all of us have a certain framework that refers to our jobs. But boy, if we were able to give the freedom to our employees to actually use the personality and the skills we actually hire them for, that would be incredible. So we can all remember that situation with a one 800 call we might’ve had, where we can tell that that person is just on a script. They are going by the script, they’re in that framework. And regardless of how we try to talk to them about our problem, they’re not going to have any freedom to solve it. And I think anybody who’s ever flown Southwest Airlines has seen that in the flight attendants because they have a basic framework. They’re going to make their on-call announcement, they’re on board the aircraft, but they can use their own personality. And what happens, they enjoy their job more and you’re much more likely to listen to them. So for those leaders who are so formulaic in the way they want their product delivered, they’re going to really miss ’em. Delightful surprises and that connection that goes along with the customer.

Andy Stanley (30:22):
So I can’t not ask this question, and since you’re not with Southwest Airlines anymore, now you can answer honestly, surely that whole flight attendant thing got out of hand from time to time because there was so much freedom and so much humor and so much personality. And in organizational life, of course, we have to orchestrate certain things and evaluate, orchestrate, evaluate, orchestrate, evaluate. You probably didn’t give the folks behind the counter that much flexibility in terms of how they check people in. I mean, there are certain things that have to be done a certain way. So at Southwestern, what was the thought or the process behind, we’re going to orchestrate tightly in certain processes, and then we’re going to give this what seemed to us as customers extraordinary leeway when it came specifically to flight attendants. Talk a little bit about that because that was amazing.

Ginger Hardage (31:13):
Well, the flight attendants are able to, if they deliver the basic information from that, the Federal Aviation Administration is looking for,

Andy Stanley (31:22):
Buckle your seatbelt,

Ginger Hardage (31:24):
Right? Buckle your seatbelt, but they’re able to do it with a sense of humor. Absolutely. And the flight attendants, one of the things they knew is on the early morning flight, the 6:00 AM flight, the jokes are probably not going to go over as well because everybody just wants their cup of coffee and maybe to be able to go take a nap or something.

Andy Stanley (31:44):
That’s the same at the 9:00 AM service in church, same thing, right? They’re more awake at 11:00 AM Yeah, I get it.

Ginger Hardage (31:51):
You judge your audience. You definitely judge your audience. But the flight to Vegas, yeah, they’re going to probably want a few more jokes going on. So the employees, there was a rare occasion when you had to reel someone back in. In fact, you can Google a funny flight attendants on Southwest Airlines and YouTube is going to give you a lot back, and it was encouraged. That’s because Southwest is an organization that doesn’t take itself too seriously, and that’s one of our values. And that doesn’t mean you have to be the funniest person in the room, but you just don’t take yourself seriously. So you didn’t have to be a funny person to be hired. Your great trait might’ve been empathy, and you gave that back to other people as well. So we are looking for if you hire people, right, and you’re bringing them into their organization, you share your values and you’re able to allow them to show their personality that you really hired them for it. That spark in the first place,

Andy Stanley (32:56):
The idea of bringing something so casual and so fun and so seemingly unscripted into an industry that is safety first, safety first, safety first. Those things, they don’t seem to mesh up at all. So that seemed like somewhat of a big risk, but obviously it paid off and it worked. There’s a leadership lesson there somewhere for those of us who, again, who get so boxed in by our industry that we think the framework that the box is way smaller than perhaps it really is. So that’s amazing.

Ginger Hardage (33:26):
Southwest was a disruptor early on. And how are you going to break out with any of us in our brands? What is going to make us stand out and how are we going to be different from the others?

Andy Stanley (33:38):
And every business, especially in a crowded field, has to figure out the differentiator. And that was a unique differentiator for sure. Number five, line number five, we can’t afford culture. We can’t afford culture. And I’m assuming this of course comes from the fact that when people see the extravagance and the expense that some organizations go to create culture, they think, well, it’s going to cost a lot of money, so we’re going to have a culture, but at the same time, we can’t afford culture. There’s some tension there. Talk a little bit about this one.

Ginger Hardage (34:12):
Culture doesn’t have to cost a lot to be effective, so I’d love to give some free ideas about that because our spirit is willing, but our budget is weak. I get that. So how are we going to go about doing that? And one of some of the free things I would tell people to do would be to put storytelling front and center, because repeating those stories will help employees see the unlimited boundaries that they can go to to help solve problems for the customers, and it gives them so much personal empowerment. Number two, I’d say be inclusive in decision making and involve employees who are closest to the work. Let them make the decisions. The example there was when it was time at Southwest to get new uniforms, the employees were charged with that task, a whole task force decide what the new uniforms could look like. Yes, it took longer than probably just going and just purchasing them, but the satisfaction rate was so much higher. And again, being as inclusive in decision making as possible. And then we also created volunteer opportunities for employees. And that again, mixes up employees in different situations and how much value it brings back to the organization for allowing employees to get involved in representing their organization outside in the community.

Andy Stanley (35:43):
So put storytelling front and center, and I guess this would involve sometimes the way I say it is when you see it, give people an opportunity to experience it. Like when you catch somebody doing the right thing, you elevate those stories. Because again, as we said earlier, values can be so stale, but when we catch somebody living out of value, anytime we can showcase or platform that experience or that story, that’s super helpful. Number two, be inclusive with decision-making. Again, this is so hard for us as leaders because it does take longer and what do they know? And we hired to have all the good ideas and come up with all the decisions. It does take so much longer. But not only is it empowering, but to your point, it reinforces a culture of we rather than they, and then create volunteer opportunities. Now, I’m so glad you brought up volunteering because you’ve recently, as we mentioned earlier, stepped up in that category to be the global chair of the Ronald McDonald House Charities. So again, how did you get involved, again, the transition from for-profit to nonprofit? Was that an easy thing? Did you enjoy that? Is it so different, or is it so much the same that you feel like you’ve been able to take your corporate experience into this nonprofit world?

Ginger Hardage (36:55):
Well, my involvement in Ronald McDonald House actually started through Southwest Airlines because Southwest encouraged us as employees to get out and volunteer. And one of the things we did was cook at Ronald McDonald Houses. My first time to cook was in Kansas City at the house in 1990, and I was immediately hooked because I saw what was happening through that family-centered care, the families actually involved in being able to be near their children when they were receiving care. So it was a natural to continue to stay involved in that organization all these years later, serving on the global board for 10 years, and then now the organization, seeing them grow to 65 countries and helping so many families, 2.5 million families every year.

Andy Stanley (37:49):
So while you were at Southwest Airlines, one of your volunteer opportunities was this, that eventually became kind of a second career. That’s pretty powerful.

Ginger Hardage (37:58):
Well, and we never know how we’re going to get hooked into a particular volunteer activity. So that’s why I encourage employees to look at organizations that will foster that kind of environment for them to allow them to represent their organization back out in the communities as well.

Andy Stanley (38:17):
Well, as we wrap up, if you had to give us an assignment, we’re sitting in class and we’ve taken so many notes, we don’t know what to do with ’em all, but we need to start somewhere. What is one step that every leader can take right now as it relates to reinforcing or improving the health of their corporate culture? What would you say? Where do we start?

Ginger Hardage (38:39):
I would tell that leader to live your values and to bring your values to life every day as a leader. And so start being a collector of stories as a leader. Because if, again, we’ve talked about this already, if your values are stagnant, they’re not going anywhere. But start as a leader. Start collecting stories, and when you see someone putting your company’s values into action, tell other people about that. Become a champion and a storyteller of your employees and how they’re living their values. And look at putting out an email if you see it in your organization, talk about it at your team meetings, whatever you’re doing as a leader to amplify those stories and model the kind of behavior that you’re leading and the kind of behavior you want to see in others.

Andy Stanley (39:32):
Yeah, celebrate it when you see it. Yep. Well, this has been fantastic. And again, it’s an ongoing challenge for new organizations establishing corporate culture for older organizations, protecting it or reestablishing it. And then for the leader who drops in or inherits a culture that they know they need to change, there’s so many takeaways. So thank you so much, ginger. That’s all the time we have for today. But to all of our listeners, we want to thank you for joining us as well, and to learn more about Ginger’s Culture Masterclass experience. It’s called Unstoppable Cultures Fellowship, unstoppable Culture’s Fellowship, and you can find it@unstoppableculturesfellowship.com. In addition, make sure you visit andy stanley.com where you can download the Leadership podcast application guide that goes with today’s content. So if you discuss this content with your leadership team, we have some questions there that will help keep the conversation going, and I look forward to seeing you back here next time for another episode of the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

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