By Allen Haynes • June 16, 2025

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Lane Jones (00:02):
Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. On today’s podcast, we’ll begin a conversation on the unexpectedly complex topic of purpose. Andy, the idea of purpose is one you’ve talked about with our staff for many years, but it is unexpectedly complex.

Andy Stanley (00:22):
In fact, when we decided to talk about this, I thought maybe we should name it something else, because if I found out that a podcast I listen to on a frequent basis was going to be about purpose, I would think, oh, yeah, yeah, I got that. But this is a very, very important conversation because as we’re about to discover, purpose has a catch. And whereas everyone is inspired to find their purpose and embrace purpose and bring purpose to the marketplace, there’s a catch. There’s an obstacle. And I think one of the reasons more leaders aren’t more successful in embracing the notion of purpose, whether it’s in the for-profit or nonprofit, is they’re not aware of the catch. They bump up against it. They’re not sure what it is exactly, but they oftentimes retreat from it. So I’m so excited about this conversation. And the other thing too, depending on the age of the podcast listener, early on in our careers, purpose is not all that important. As my mentor Charlie Renfro often says, everybody’s got to eat and live indoors. So when you get out of college, you get that first job, or maybe you get that first promotion. Purpose is a nice to have. Maybe someday one day, something maybe I hear about in church or from some nonprofit. Meanwhile, I got to sell stuff. I’ve got to account for stuff, I’ve got to manage stuff. I’ve got to leave stuff. I’ve got to get a paycheck. I need that bonus. And so purpose sort of hovers out there

(01:42):
Somewhere, but I think eventually at some point in our lives and the earlier, the better. We bump into this, why am I doing this? What is this leading to? So I think eventually purpose becomes a big deal as it should.

Lane Jones (01:54):
Andy, in your book, you wrote this, you said, vision translates into purpose. It gives you a reason to get up in the morning that makes purpose seem very important.

Andy Stanley (02:06):
And purpose is always associated with vision. Anybody, whether it’s a vision for product, something new, even making something better, there’s always a connection between vision and purpose. In the book too, I said this, that purpose carries with it the momentum. And that’s the key word. Purpose carries with it, the momentum to move you through the barriers that would otherwise slow you up or trip you up.

(02:28):
So anybody that’s trying to solve a problem that they feel is important, if it’s associated with a preferred picture of the future, which is a vision, then clearly purpose is a part of that. So again, that’s why I say I think early on in our careers, purpose is so nebulous and sort of altruistic and what does that have to do with the marketplace? But any leader who has any kind of vision for anything within a company or for a new company, vision and purpose, they eventually come together. They intersect. And that’s why oftentimes as we’re going to discover, I think people step back from it when they realize what it really involves.

Lane Jones (03:04):
Well, let’s get to what it really involves, what you’ve called the catch of purpose.

Andy Stanley (03:10):
Yeah, purpose has a catch. There’s a twist, there’s a gotcha. Actually. It’s the definition of purpose that should tip us off. So here is a generic definition of purpose. Purpose, the reason for which something exists or is accomplished. Purpose is the reason for which something exists or is accomplished, which means that purpose is a means to an end. Shovels, dig holes, hedge tremors, trim hedges, mouthwash, mouthwash, kills, germs that cause bad breath. We could go on and on and on. If you look at any product and say, Hey, what’s the purpose of this product? The answer to that question is always, this is a means to an end. And here’s the catch, most people are not willing to be a means to an end.

(03:56):
Most of us want to be the end. We want something else to be a means to our end. But if you’re an end, you can’t be a means to an end. And this is why people resist the idea of purpose. They don’t think of it in these terms, but eventually there’s a call to sacrifice. There’s a call to action, and it brings them up against, it brings them to the brink of, wow, if I move forward, if I jump off, suddenly I have committed myself to something bigger than myself that is not about myself. And that’s the catch.

Lane Jones (04:28):
Andy, I’ve heard you say that asking what is my purpose is the wrong question. And that can head you in the wrong direction.

Andy Stanley (04:34):
Yeah, I think it’s the wrong question, but I certainly understand why people ask it. We’ve all asked it. In fact, we’ve encouraged our kids to ask it. But think about what’s behind the question. What is my purpose? In other words, I want to know my purpose so I won’t be without purpose again, why am I here? I want to know why I’m here, so I’ll know why I’m here. So at the end of the day, even though these are, I don’t think these are necessarily bad questions. I don’t think they get us to purpose. I think it just brings me back to me. And again, there are people listening today, men and women listening today, and I can empathize with your struggle. You are trying to make your life count. You’re trying to do something that’s going to make a difference in the world. But my advice is this, as long as you’re hung up on what is my purpose and why am I here, you’re probably not going to get there because at the end of the day, purpose is about becoming a means to an end that is not you.

Lane Jones (05:30):
Okay, so what’s the right question?

Andy Stanley (05:33):
Well, I don’t know what the right question is. I just know what the wrong questions are. I’ll tell you what I think maybe some better questions are. I think the better questions are instead of what am I here for? Maybe the better question is, who am I here for?

(05:46):
Or as I look at our team and our organization to ask the question, who are we here for? Lane, I know you’ve heard me say this before, that purpose is always found. Purpose is always found just across the border from what’s in it for me. That purpose, you’re never going to find purpose on this side of what’s in it. For me, purpose is always found just across the border of what’s in it for me. And again, that’s the catch. That’s the got you. You can inspire me like crazy. But at some point I have to realize, okay, to really embrace a life of purpose, whether it’s in the marketplace or the nonprofit world or something, I’m just interested in on the side, at some point I have to say no to me, I can’t be the end. I have to be a means to an end. So basically to use the phrase empowered or driven by purpose, we have to become a means to an end that is not us. I have to become a means to an end. That is not me. It means saying no to me. So I can say yes to something bigger than me, other than me. And again, there’s something in all of us that resists that.

Lane Jones (06:50):
So basically, Andy, you’re saying purpose has a price.

Andy Stanley (06:53):
Yeah, absolutely. I have to be willing to say no to myself, my interest, my plan, so I can say yes again to something bigger. I stumbled across what I think is a great example of this. When I was researching this topic, Larry Merlo is the president and CEO of CVS pharmacies. And in 2014, I thought long ago CVS actually became the first major pharmacy chain in America to stop selling cigarettes and some other tobacco related products. Now, many of us didn’t know this happened. In fact, we go into drugstore today and most drug stores don’t sell cigarettes or tobacco related products and never crossed our mind that somewhere along the way somebody took the first step. And once he made this decision and announced it to the board, at some point he said this, and I thought this was so powerful, and this is a quote, he said, put simply the sale of tobacco products is inconsistent with our purpose, that the sale of tobacco products is inconsistent with our purpose.

(07:48):
And their purpose is basically helping people on their path to better health. That’s the way they say it there. But putting purpose ahead of profit in this case initially cost them not millions, billions of dollars, and they knew that going in. So again, purpose is a great thing. Everybody wants to embrace purpose. CVS decides, okay, our purpose really is health. If we’re all about health, we can’t sell cigarettes. That leads us to the brink of a perhaps multibillion dollar decision. Well, what do most companies do at that point? You know what? We’ll leave purpose for the nonprofit. This is business, this is marketplace, this is shareholders. Totally get that. But Larry Merlo decided, no, I want to jump off that cliff. I’m willing to walk through that fire. I want our company to embrace the idea of purpose, even though it’s going to cost us, we are going to be become a means to an end, and the end isn’t all about us. Big decision. Other companies began to follow suit, and consequently, they became an industry leader with that one very costly decision.

Lane Jones (08:55):
Andy, I’ve heard you say that while purpose definitely has a price, it can also be a path to meaning.

Andy Stanley (09:00):
Absolutely. Purpose is the pathway to meaning. And let me explain what I mean. When an individual or a family or a company embraces the idea of purpose, think about it. They become a means to an end, and that’s what meaning means to have. Meaning means to become a means to an end. You cannot have meaning in life if you are not willing to become a means to an end that is not yourself. So when people say there has to be more to life than this, what they’re really saying is this, there has to be more to life than me. That’s what we’re really saying when we say that there has to be more to life than this. There has to be more to life than me. So that’s why we say all the time, those who devote themselves to themselves or the company that devotes itself to itself, those who devote themselves to themselves, will ultimately have nothing but themselves to show for themselves.

(09:49):
And the same is true for an organization or a company. If it’s all about the organization, it’s all about the company. At the end of the day, that’s what they’ll have to show. But when an individual, especially a leader or an influencer decides to step off that cliff, to do something that’s not just about that leader, if you devote yourself to more than yourself at the end, you have more than yourself to show for yourself. So it goes both ways. But again, I think our listeners can see why this is a little bit tricky. It’s inspiring. Everybody should embrace purpose, but there is a price. There is a cost, but the advantage, the reward is meaning, but you can’t have meaning. I can’t have meaning as long as it’s all about me.

(10:33):
And I will never live a meaningful life until I’m willing to become a means to an end and lane, as you know in our context, in the faith context, we say it this way, that your glory or our glory is too small a thing to live for, that we were created, we were designed with more in mind. There’s a story that you and I are familiar with that I think our podcast listeners can appreciate. There’s a gentleman in our church named Tom Rhodes. He’s an architect by trade, is an incredible architect. And about eight years ago and one of our services, he became aware of the fact that we needed someone to volunteer with special needs kids. So parents can come to church, drop off their special needs, kids enjoy the service with great people back there taking care of and having fun with, and teaching their special needs kids.

(11:20):
Well, Tom didn’t have any background in any of that, but he loves our church, wanted to participate. So Tom decided to begin volunteering on Sundays with special needs kids just because that’s where we needed help and fell in love with it. Then he heard that we were doing some work in East Asia with special needs kids, some really, really difficult situations. So he went to East Asia, not an easy trip. Well, he’s been five times. So Tom, he’s a busy guy. He’s got a profession, he’s got a family he’s raising. But he bumped into this need and he jumped off. He knew this would be a sacrifice. It means less time for himself On Sunday, he’s raised and spent thousands and thousands of his own dollars to make five trips to East Asia to work in these difficult environments. So when he was asked about this, because when you hear a story like that again, you’re inspired, you admire that. You internalize it. You say, would I do that? Would I be willing to do that? And stories like that lead us up to the brink of I. Stories like that lead us up to the brink of me and what’s in it for me? And am I really willing to be a means to an end? And again, you can’t find meaning. You cannot find meaning in life until you’re willing to be a means. So when he was asked about this, he said something so powerful that I wrote it down. And here’s Tom’s quote. He said, it’s difficult just to go back to normal every day Sunday, once you’ve tasted purpose,

(12:46):
And that’s it. You don’t know it until you experience it, but once you experience it, whatever sacrifice had to be made in order to get there, people find out it’s worth it. But as you stand there wondering, am I really willing to become a means to something greater than myself? There’s always something in all of us that says, no, I’m just not willing to take that step. Well, Tom took that step, and again, he’s an advocate not only for what he does with special needs kids, but he’s an advocate for men and women in business stepping out beyond the bottom line, stepping out beyond the dollar sign to say, Hey, if you have an opportunity to bring purpose to what you do, it is worth whatever price you have to pay.

Lane Jones (13:25):
Andy, that sets us up perfectly for today’s discussion. And I want to talk about three ideas. I’ve heard you teach our staff. I want to talk about three ideas. I’ve heard you teach again and again, three things that help us to become a means to an end. The first one is begin looking at everything you are currently doing through the lens of means.

Andy Stanley (13:45):
Yeah, begin looking at everything that we’re currently doing. Again, when we think about purpose or living a meaningful life, we think it’s something else. It’s something out there. So part of this is just learning to think different. So since purpose, think about it is since purpose is a means to an end, anytime you make an end a means you’ve embraced purpose. For example, I know that seemed like a little bit of circular logic there, but think about it this way. Somebody says, I have a dead end job. I’m stuck in this dead end job. No, see, you’ve made your job an end. Your job is not an end. Your job is a means to an end. You’re eating and you’re living indoors to quote Charlie. So your job is a means it has a purpose. Every job that results in a paycheck is a purposeful job.

(14:27):
Again, the average person looks at their average job and says, no, my I have an average. No. Your job there is purpose. It’s there. You just haven’t discovered it because you’re not thinking correctly. And as small a tweak and as small a shift in thinking as this is incredibly important because it’s beginning to look at things that we generally consider as an end as a means. Somebody says, well, I’m just paying the bills. Well, what happens when you don’t? Paying the bills is a means to an end. Again, you don’t just teach school. You don’t just manage budgets. You don’t just do accounting. You don’t just sell real estate or cars or whatever it is that you sell. And parents, come on, you’re not just raising kids. All of those statements are like, that’s an end. Everything I do, it’s an end. It’s an end. And that’s not true. It’s a means to an end. In fact, to parents, I say this all the time, your greatest contribution to the world, I mean the most purposeful thing you do, the most meaningful thing you do, you greatest contribution to the world may not be something you do, but someone you raise.

(15:31):
That raising kids is a means to an end. It is not the end. So again, it’s a small tweak in our thinking. So everybody listening, as you think about maybe some of the most mundane things you do that you just think there’s no purpose in this, well, there probably is. You’ve just got to learn to think differently.

Lane Jones (15:50):
The second way you’ve talked about discovering purpose was to pay attention to what stirs your heart.

Andy Stanley (15:56):
Yeah. On a previous podcast, we asked the question, what breaks your heart? And this is a similar idea. What stirs your heart? What breaks your heart? What do you find yourself thinking about when you can think about whatever you want to think about, what sort of leads you down the path of something that might take you beyond you or set you up to be a means to an end? Or the other question. And Sandra, my wife asked this, she said, when I think about what I would like people to line up at the end of my life and thank me for, and then she told me what that was,

(16:29):
And I thought, what an incredible perspective to ask the question. At the end of my life when they’re celebrating my life or when I’m in my final days and I’m rocking on the rocking chair, what would I like people to line up to thank me for? That is a really, really, really big idea because somewhere in there is meaning, somewhere in there is purpose. And perhaps that’s enough of a visual to lead someone to take those steps, that there’s always a price to pay, but a price that’s worth paying. Because at the end of my life, here’s what I’d like people to thank me for. So along these same lines, in my experience and in talking to other people and in hearing some extraordinarily inspiring stories like we’ve all heard, I think that purpose is often found at the intersection of a broken heart or stirred heart and opportunity and skill. Those three things, my heart is stirred, my heart’s broken over something in culture, in society, in my neighborhood, in my organization, and then an opportunity comes along and lo and behold, I have a skillset that allows me to step into that opportunity. So a broken heart opportunity and skill. At the intersection of those three things, oftentimes a person finds that thing they’re willing to give their lives to that goes beyond them. But that really begins, that process begins with paying attention to what stirs our heart and then looking for and being open to that next opportunity.

Lane Jones (17:53):
And Andy, the final key that I’ve heard you talk about is that we should surround ourselves with on purpose people.

Andy Stanley (18:00):
And this is absolutely huge. In fact, if you’re listening to this podcast, chances are you listen to other podcasts, which means you’re a learner, which means you already get this, whether you understand the science behind it or not. And speaking of science, my assistant Diane Grant just sent me an article recently that again just bolsters this idea. There’s a neuroscientist at Northwestern University named More in Surf. I think that’s how you pronounce his last name. He’s been studying decision-making for over a decade. And his research, this is so fascinating, his research has found that when two people are in each other’s company, their brainwaves will begin looking nearly identical, just being in the room together and interacting. Something happens in the brain, and here’s a quote from the article. He says, the more we study engagement, we see time and time again that just being next to certain people actually aligns your brain with them. Now, think about that. Of course, every parent listening with teenagers and middle schoolers and high schoolers going, I knew it. I’ve seen this happen. I didn’t know there was science to back it up, but he says, there’s something that happens in our brains based on the people we’re around. So then he goes on to say this, the people you hang out with actually have an impact on your engagement with reality beyond what you can explain. And one of the effects is you become alike.

(19:23):
So this whole idea that we become like the people we associate with, not only does that happen in our behavior because that’s where we observe it. You started hanging out with him and now you’re doing this. Now you’re doing that since you started hanging out with that group of girls. We see it all the time. And so he says, well, there’s science to back this up. This is not just behavioral. Something actually happens in our brain. So his conclusion is, and this is so powerful, that if people want to maximize, he talks about happiness. If you want to maximize happiness and minimize stress, that you should build a life that requires fewer decisions by surrounding ourselves with people who embody the traits we prefer by surrounding ourselves with people who embody the traits that we prefer. Because over time, we naturally pick these up whether they are desirable or not. So surrounding ourselves with on purpose people is actually a strategy. If we really are about getting to the place where we are willing to take the step, make the sacrifice to do something meaningful with our lives, surrounding ourselves with people who think that way and live that way will encourage us. And he would argue that even neurologically would help move us down that path. Another example of this that I’m super familiar with, there’s an organization called Generous Giving. Generous Giving does weekend events where very resourced people, wealthy people bring their wealthy friends to an event where they hear stories of generosity.

(20:51):
And so these are all resource people. They watch, they hear testimonies. People get up and talk about managing money. It’s all about managing money, but the focus is generosity. And so they hear stories of extraordinary generosity while being surrounded with generous people who are resource people like themselves. And I’ve heard story after story after story of men and women and couples who come out and say, you know what? I thought I was generous. I thought I was a generous person. But what happened was they got around people who were more generous, and suddenly they began to think in terms of generosity. And some of these folks have made extraordinary changes both in lifestyle and their level of giving. Why? Because they were around people. They had something in common with, but who were thinking a little bit differently. And next thing you know, they’re their generosity increases. So we’ve seen this with our kids. Everybody listening today has a story about how a group of people influenced them, either positively or negatively. So to get to the place where we are willing to make the sacrifice to embrace purpose or meaning, a big part of this is surrounding ourselves with like-minded people, men and women who in their particular context are living out this whole idea of purpose. It’s a big, big deal.

Lane Jones (22:10):
So Andy, what you’re saying then is that living on purpose can be contagious?

Andy Stanley (22:15):
Absolutely. When you’re around people who are not afraid to give themselves to something other than themselves, it is contagious. And what’s most contagious about that group is their joy. You remember Tom Rhodes when he talks about special needs kids, when he talks about these arduous trips to East Asia,

(22:32):
And we think, wow, that must’ve been so hard. He lights up, there’s joy, there is joy in selflessness. And as we both know, both selflessness and self-centeredness, those are both contagious. So we get to choose who we surround ourselves with. And if living a life of purpose, if leading an organization that has embraced purpose is important, then who we spend time with is extremely important. Lane, as you know, I’ve spent a lot of years teaching teenagers, and when I would talk about this issue of friendship and peer influence, my bottom line was always, your friends determine the direction and quality of your life.

(23:11):
Your friends determine the direction and quality of your life. And whereas in the past we’ve known that’s true observationally. Now we have science to back it up.

Lane Jones (23:19):
Well, Andy, as we wrap this up, I want to go over these three big ideas you gave us today. Begin looking at everything you’re currently doing through the lens of means. Pay attention to what stirs your heart, and finally surround yourself with on purpose people. Any final thoughts?

Andy Stanley (23:35):
Well, I guess it’s more of a final question than a final thought. My friend, Cheryl Batchelder, in her book Dare to Serve, which is a fantastic leadership book, she said this, she said, the point of purpose is to determine how you will serve others. Bottom line, the point of purpose, which is what we’ve said all along, is to determine how you will serve others. Then she says this, and this is pretty strong. If you don’t have a plan to serve, you don’t need a purpose. So I think I would just leave our listeners with this question. Are you willing to serve others? Are you willing to be a means to an end instead of the end? And if so, you are on your way to embracing a life of meaning and purpose. And if not, you’re going to miss out. And someday people will gather to celebrate your life, and they will either have a deep well to dig from or they will have to make things up. And lane, you and I have been at both kinds of funeral services where you felt like you just sort of had to make things up. And then we have celebrated lives where we could have stayed all day because they gave their lives away.

Lane Jones (24:45):
Well Andy, thanks so much for today and to all our listeners, we want to thank you for joining us. Don’t forget to check out the Andy stanley.com website where you can find the leadership application guide to go with today’s podcast.

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