By Allen Haynes • April 14, 2025 Listen to podcast. Suzy Gray (00:03): Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb, a conversation that digs deeper into this month’s podcast topic, all designed to help leaders go even further faster. Andy, last week you had such an insightful conversation with Michael Hyatt about the power of the stories we tell ourselves and how those stories shape our leadership. And today I want to take that even further. Specifically, I want to talk about how excuses or the stories we create to justify an action. Don’t just hold us back as leaders personally, but can ripple out to affect our teams and our organizations. So Andy, I’ve actually heard you talk about excuses as paper walls. Elaborate on that. Andy Stanley (00:42): Yeah, I say that because I think we’ve all lived long enough to know that we all have a tendency to make excuses. Oftentimes, we grow past those excuses. And if you’ve ever moved beyond an excuse and you look back at the excuse, you realize, oh, that wasn’t even real. I was telling myself a lie, or I created a narrative like Michael and I talked about that just wasn’t true. And where this is clearest, and Michael and I talked a little bit about this, where this is clearest is when you listen to your children, make excuses, and you realize, first you’re not telling me the truth. If you tell me that untruth long enough, you’re going to start to believe it. You’re going to believe it, you’re going to believe it. And it kind of freaks us out as parents. Like, no, no, no, no, I don’t believe a Suzy Gray (01:21): Lie. Don’t say that out loud. Andy Stanley (01:22): Yeah, don’t say that out loud. You’re going to curse yourself. But that’s the nature of an excuse. It becomes a reason not to do something. And so one of the most important things a leader can do is recognize an excuse for what it is. Realize it’s just a paper wall, and I need to get behind that and punch through that and accept what’s really true, and then create a narrative that’s helpful. So yeah, excuses are basically paper walls. And the other thing Michael and I talked about that’s so important is when a leader begins to make an excuse, it trickles down. It gets telegraphed. And soon I’m not the only person who’s saying, well, the reason our organization can’t do this before long, everybody’s saying the reason our organization can’t do this. And it just reinforces something that is limiting for sure and may not even be true. So that whole self-talk that begins to leak into organizational culture and meetings and everything else, we have to be so extraordinarily careful because an excuse is, again, it’s a limitation. It doesn’t accomplish anything. And eventually somebody in our industry is going to come along and punch through that barrier or that excuse, and then we’re going to feel behind. So (02:32): It’s (02:32): Very, very dangerous. And I think one of the big takeaways from my conversation with Michael is to listen to our self talk that begins in our heads and get that out there and look at it and examine it and ask, be curious about it, interrogate it. Wait a minute, is that true? In fact, when we were having that conversation, I thought back to the podcast episode we did with John Acuff. Suzy Gray (02:53): Oh, yeah, Andy Stanley (02:53): Yeah. And it was a similar topic. And what he said, and these are from my notes, I thought it was so great. He did a talk at the Global Leadership Summit years ago. You and I were there, and he said, think of a goal. And he said, and then what’s the first thought that comes to mind when you think of a big goal? And then he gives us these three questions. You remember this? He said, as you think about your initial response to this big audacious goal, because oftentimes if it’s big enough, we start making excuses. I don’t have time, I can’t, don’t have the talent. I don’t have the ability, I don’t have the money, Suzy Gray (03:23): Resources. Andy Stanley (03:23): Right on and on and on. He said, after you’ve kind of gotten through telling yourself why you can’t do it and why it’s not even worth pursuing, he said to ask these three questions about the thoughts, which are really excuses. Number one, is it true? It’s what I just told myself true. Number two, is it helpful? Is what I just told myself helpful. And then number three is it kind. (03:44): And again, this is the same idea. It’s learning to interrogate our thoughts, interrogate the narratives we tell ourselves. And I thought the other part of my conversation with Michael that was so helpful was the story he told about the gentleman that grew up as a Mennonite. That was, yeah, if you’re listening to this episode and didn’t listen to the original conversation with Michael, it’s worth going back just to hear that as this gentleman enunciated two different narratives about the same experience, and one was positive, one was negative, and he decided, you know what? I’m going to go with the positive one. Both are true. It’s just a matter of how we spend the Suzy Gray (04:19): Information, the lens, you look at it, Andy Stanley (04:20): The lens, right? Again, and this is way outside my lane of expertise and the interpretation that we put on the event. There’s the event, and then there’s the interpretation of the event and the leader who can learn not to spin in a false way, but to find the positive interpretation of events. That’s the leader that’s going to find a solution rather than being hemmed in by paper walls. (04:46): And (04:46): We’ve been doing this for 30 years, and I’ve seen that happen as, again, instead of looking at limitations, limitations are opportunities. (04:55): And (04:55): Again, in every industry, somebody’s going to figure this out knowing we’re going to have this conversation. I went back to a book I read many, many years ago. I don’t even know when this book was published. In fact, it’s had two different names. It was, it’s Joel Barker. It was first it was called Future Edge. Then they republished it under the name paradigms. And here’s a statement that I just think is so powerful. He wrote those who say it can’t be done. There’s the paper wall, there’s the excuse. And again, there’s reams of information as to why it can’t be done. Whatever it is, just think about whatever industry you’re in. It can’t be done. He said, those who say it can’t be done are usually interrupted by others doing it. Those who say it can’t be done, why try? This is the limitation. It’s the industry we’re in. It’s the economy. It’s all this stuff are usually, or you could say, eventually interrupted by others doing it. (05:47): So this is the danger of believing a narrative that just puts a period at the end of something or an exclamation mark to say, it can’t be done. There’s no use in even trying. And then this question I’ve gone back to so many times, and again, it goes back to the narratives that we write and believe. Here’s the other thing he said in this book that was so powerful to me. Here’s the question. He said, what do I believe is impossible to do in my field? But if it could be done, would fundamentally change my business? (06:22): This is such a great question. What do I believe? Or what am I convinced? Again, excuse paper walls. What do I believe based on my experience, based on what everybody has said, based on what they said in school? What do I believe is impossible to do in my field or my industry? But if it could be done, in other words, if somebody solved that problem, it would fundamentally change my business. I just think that’s one of those questions that forces me to rethink The limiting narratives I’m telling myself forces me outside the boundaries of what an industry or an organization or company that’s associated with an industry standards, industry expectations. It just forces me outside of those and to realize eventually somebody’s going to come along and do this. And as we all know, there’s so many illustrations of this. The person that is first, the person that does the impossible, that shifts an industry, whether it was Netflix streaming, instead of going to a video store and checking out a video that you had to return, there’s so many illustrations. It’s a game changer. And so that’s the way we should think. Even though we were always working within certain confines, the canvas is only so big to paint on all those metaphors at the same time, to at least have an answer to that question outside the boundaries of reality. But, but what if (07:42): Somebody could solve that problem? Suddenly what’s possible, a lot of things change. And the answer to that question is always industry or even organization specific. But having an answer to that question does two things. First, it gives me something to be thinking about in terms of trying to find a way to make what’s impossible possible. But the second thing it does is it keeps me open to the people who are also trying to make the impossible possible and paying attention to what they’re doing. (08:12): So (08:12): I may not be first, but I’m not going to be last. As soon as somebody cracks the code on that or figures that out, then at least I know that’s the game changing shift, and at least know what that is. Then you jump on board as quick as possible. So anyway, long answer to your question, Suzy Gray (08:29): No, but that’s so important because if leaders can’t do that, they get stuck in their own excuses, and they may even start believing their own excuses. Andy Stanley (08:36): Can I give you a quick illustration of Suzy Gray (08:38): That? Yeah. Andy Stanley (08:38): Okay. So many years ago when we first started the church, I was talking to John Maxwell, the leadership guru, and I said, John, I said, the limiting factor in church world in the United States, or one of the limiting factors is big churches. Successful churches are always led by somebody who’s a strong communicator and a strong leader. They have both of those gifts. I said, have you ever seen a church that did well where those gifts were split up between two different people? Because you got to have strong leadership and you got to have strong communication. But that’s a limiting factor to find a man or a woman who that has both. That has both, right? That’s a limit. Well, so we talked about that and he said, yeah, that’s just the nature of the thing Suzy Gray (09:25): Of the beast. Andy Stanley (09:26): And then when we outgrew our building, we began to experiment with dispersed teaching. In other words, we couldn’t stream at that time, but to create a separate campus where you could hire a strong leader and yet leverage the strong communicator, I mean, that was a game changer. And we weren’t the only ones experimenting with that, but there were enough of us kind of on the front edge of that as how do we split up the leadership gift from the communication gift? Because that was a limited Suzy Gray (09:52): Factor. Limited factor. Andy Stanley (09:53): And before long multi-site was born, and again, a huge game changer within, if I can call church world, my industry, (10:02): Which then led to the next question, okay, then what’s the next question? What’s the next thing that if somebody could solve that problem, it’s a game changer for the industry of church or whatever it might be. So having an answer to the question, what is the thing? What do I believe is impossible to do in my field? But if that one thing could be done, if that one problem could be solved, it fundamentally changes everything that, again, it just forces us outside our narratives that are like, well, it can’t, it’ll never change the economy. All those things, kinds of things. And real quick to our podcast listeners, I want to take just a moment to talk about something that has been a nutritional game changer for me and for Sandra, and that is AG one. Ag one has become a simple daily habit that supports our overall wellbeing. 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So make sure to check out drink ag one.com/alp. That’s drink ag one.com/aslp to get this offer. And now let’s get back to today’s content. Suzy Gray (12:01): I imagine a lot of our listeners might be wondering, what excuse am I holding onto? Are there common paper walls that you’ve seen leaders make that they should watch out for that would prevent them from being able to even ask that question? Andy Stanley (12:13): Yeah. Age. I’m too young. I’m too old. I don’t have enough time. I don’t have enough education. Suzy Gray (12:20): Nobody Andy Stanley (12:20): Listens to me. I don’t have enough experience. I don’t have any experience. I need to wait. I need to move. I’m in the wrong part of the country. The point of this conversation is the minute something comes to our mind that is a reason. Because here’s the other thing we could tease out. We confuse reasons with excuses. We think it’s a reason, it’s not a reason. It’s not a, because oftentimes it’s an excuse. And so to identify for what it is, so to say, well, the reason I haven’t, okay, let me look behind that. Is that really a reason? So Michael gave us a great illustration of this back during the recession. He’s in the publishing industry. The publishing industry got pummeled, several industries did. So he’s with his coach is professional coach, and he was bemoaning the publishing. We missed our number, and she began asking him questions about his personal leadership and what it contributed to that. And he’s like, no, wait, wait. It’s the economy stupid. It’s the economy stupid, right? It’s the economy again. And this is why it’s such a good illustration. Every publishing company is suffering, not just us. It if every publishing company is suffering, it can’t be me. (13:30): And she’s like, yeah, but what did you do in your leadership that you would do differently now that you know what? And next thing he knows, it’s like, oh my gosh, she Suzy Gray (13:40): Was naming things. Andy Stanley (13:41): I had a role to play in the fact that we missed our numbers. So again, it’s rethinking the narrative. And back to what I was going to say, the minute I think the reason I can’t, or the reason we can’t, I need to stop and say, wait a minute. Is that a paper wall? Am I convincing myself, is this really a reason or is this an excuse? Is this a reason or an excuse? And in most cases, if I will relabel it as an excuse, then I can think beyond the excuse. And that’s when we get creative. Suzy Gray (14:14): When you can get on the other side Andy Stanley (14:15): Of it, that’s when people do things that have never been done before because they’re not hemmed in by, again, industry standards or the stories that we tell ourselves. So this is a really, really big deal, and we all have that. That gets in the way of our potential. In the book, he has a list of questions he calls. These are questions to spark your creativity. (14:35): And the reason I want to list the questions, I mean, these questions are valuable, but I think all of us kind of need a go-to list of questions that push us beyond our internal narrative or even what other people are telling us. I mean, if you’re middle management and you have ambition about the company or your department, but your supervisor is saying, we can’t because we have to be. That’s how we do it, or whatever. Yeah. So it’s stuff like, what is the dumbest or craziest idea that might actually work? What a great question. What would I do if I were someone else in this situation? What would have to be true for us to succeed? What would we do if anything were possible? Then I love this one. My dad used to ask me this, what would you do if you weren’t afraid of failing? And the fear of failure is so subtle, and we never want to admit that we have that fear Suzy Gray (15:29): That that’s the driver, Andy Stanley (15:30): But it is there, and it’s why we don’t try things. A couple more. How would I handle this problem if it had never occurred before? Because again, sometimes we’ve seen a problem pop up, we’ve seen people respond and we kind of glob on to their experience or what the fact that they failed in trying to address it. I love this one. What would a fifth grader say about this? (15:53): Why do we do it this way? Why do we still believe that idea? One more. I love this one. If I were starting this business today, would I organize it the way it is now? Yeah, it’s a good one. See, but now that’s a very disruptive question, definitely, because if you answer it, no, oh no, I have to do something. But again, those are the kinds of questions that push us through our paper walls and get us to be curious and help us interrogate, as he talked about our own narratives in order to move forward personally or move forward in terms of the organization we’re a part of. Suzy Gray (16:26): I just feel the idea that if you can focus on what is so unique and so compelling that no one else can offer, you have the potential to transform things, but you have to be able to punch through those paper walls and get on the other side of what is potential? What do I have the chance to offer that is so compelling that it could literally change culture and change the world, but we have to be able to lift above the, but this is how it works. Well, this is how it, well, that’s for another industry, not this industry. And how do you bridge those two worlds? I mean, that’s where the magic happens. Andy Stanley (17:00): And most of us don’t take time to do that. And most of us, I mean, I’m talking about myself. We get in a rut. Here comes Monday. I do what I do on Monday, then it’s Tuesday, and I do what I do on Tuesday, and it’s Wednesday, and then time just passes by. So pulling out of that, the rat, the grind, the grind to get out of the whirlwind McChesney, to get out of the whirlwind, to think and to dream, and really just to examine what am I telling myself that isn’t necessarily true or that needs to be reinterpreted? These are extremely important exercises and really disciplines for leaders or for people who want to be leaders. And if you’re listening and you’re 25 years old, now is the time. Now is the time to just get rid of all those crazy narratives. Maybe your parents told you, or something happened when you were in the eighth grade and a coach says something and it just haunts you, whatever that is, because we oftentimes limit ourselves with the narratives we believe. Suzy Gray (17:54): For sure. Well, Andy, as we wrap up this episode, what challenge would you give to our leaders who might be wrestling with excuses right now Andy Stanley (18:01): To start paying attention Again, Michael said this, we talked a little bit about it to catch ourselves. And honestly, Susie, you know me. I am talking to myself as well to pay attention to the reason we can’t stop. Is it really a reason? The reason I can’t, the reason I haven’t, the reason I won’t. The reason we won’t are they really reasons? And if those are limits and they’re reasons, then write ’em down and say, okay, then what am I going to do about it? But don’t stay hemmed in and don’t stay locked in to really paper walls in many cases. And the people that we admire the most and the people that literally are somewhat literally changed the world or move the needle are the people who they didn’t just think big. That’s different. Thinking big is one thing. It’s thinking past the limitations that we impose on ourself or that we allow other people to impose on us, and that’s important for our kids. It’s important for modeling that for our kids. Again, we freak out when we hear our kids saying, I’m dumb. I’m stupid. I’ll never, we’re like, no, no, no. (19:03): Well, (19:03): We owe it to ourselves to give ourselves that same latitude and permission to move past those things. Suzy Gray (19:09): Definitely. Well, that’s such a great takeaway, and that is all the time we have for today. To all of our listeners, thank you for joining us for this episode of Reverb. And before we leave, we have one ask, and that’s to subscribe. By subscribing you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep improving, bringing you great guests and great content to help you as a leader. Also, be sure to visit Andy stanley.com/podcast where you’ll find more resources to help you go further, faster. Comments are closed.