By Allen Haynes • March 10, 2025 Listen to the podcast. Suzy Gray (00:02): Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb, a conversation that digs deeper into this month’s podcast topic, all designed to help leaders go further faster. I’m Suzy Gray, your host, Andy. Last week we talked about the challenges of dealing with difficult people as leaders. And let’s start this episode off with maybe you telling us a story about somebody that you had to lead that was difficult and please just don’t use my name. Andy Stanley (00:31): Where should I begin? So no, obviously I knew you were going to ask me that question. So there was a woman and she has passed away. This is many years ago. I was very young as a leader. I was learning all of this the hard way. She was a few years older than me. She was actually a volunteer. And for those of you in the marketplace leading volunteers, it has its own challenges. I mean, everybody’s a volunteer really, Suzy Gray (00:58): To some extent. Andy Stanley (00:58): To some extent, because anybody that works for us or that we work for, everybody can just quit. So there’s a sense in which everybody volunteers. But in a volunteer led or driven organization, you cannot function and be successful without volunteers. And volunteer organizations are tricky because oftentimes you’re asking the volunteers not only to give their time, but to support the organization with their money so that they will have somewhere to volunteer. Just think about that for a minute. I mean, yeah, that’s amazing. To lead a volunteer organization, it’s like give us your time and your money so we can continue to create an organization so you can give us your time. Suzy Gray (01:35): Time and money. Andy Stanley (01:35): Yeah, it’s just right. Suzy Gray (01:36): Amazing. Andy Stanley (01:37): So it requires a certain kind of leadership because again, you’re just trying to create an environment where they feel like they have purpose and all they’re getting in return is a sense of satisfaction. So again, so there was a woman, I had just begun my first full-time ministry professional job, and this woman was remarkable. So again, she was about six or seven years older than me, but she was so driven and she was so ambitious for what she wanted to do in our student ministry with teenagers that she really got on other people’s nerves. So I loved her, but other people found her to be difficult and they would circle back around and complain to me about her. And again, this is a volunteer organization, so Suzy Gray (02:24): Asking you to do something about her. Andy Stanley (02:26): Yes. But you’re trying to keep all the volunteers Suzy Gray (02:28): Happy, all the volunteers Andy Stanley (02:28): Happy, need all of them to be happy. But she was so good, and it was my first encounter and she would get on my nerves too, because she was very direct and I was young and she had been in this organization as a volunteer before they hired me as an employee. So there were all kind of crazy dynamics going on, but it was the first time I experienced there are some difficult people who are worth it. They’re just worth it. They’re so good and they’re productive and they are oftentimes the secret sauce or even the driving force in a department or a division. And in this case, she was the driving force in part of our volunteer organization that was so important. And I was tempted to remove her and to invite her to go volunteer somewhere else. What you do, Suzy Gray (03:20): I Andy Stanley (03:20): Mean, think about in a volunteer organization, when you fire a volunteer, what you’re saying is we would be better off without your free time. Exactly. I mean, that’s harsh. We would be better off if you would not give us your time. Your time. Okay. (03:37): Yeah. Okay. So welcome to volunteer leadership. But anyway, I found myself defending her to other volunteers because she was worth it. And I tell that story to say this, the goal in dealing with difficult people is not to remove them. It’s what we talked about last time. It’s owning our part of what makes it difficult and then deciding are they worth it. And in many cases, they are worth it. They are worth a little drama. They’re worth a little relational equity loss. They’re worth having to circle back around and patch some things up. And again, at some point they may not be. But circling back around to what we said last time, I just want to caution leaders, Hey, you don’t have to love everybody you work with. You don’t have to get along with everybody you work with. You don’t have to look forward to everybody you work with. (04:30): Because if the mission of the organization, and especially in an organization like ours, but really any organization that’s productive and is making the world a better place, whether it’s a product or a service, as leaders, we just have to be mature enough to work with some people that we don’t enjoy, whose personalities aren’t our favorite personalities, who get on our nerves, who are maybe too direct or maybe aren’t direct enough and it drives us crazy. But hey, that’s part of maturity, is learning to lead. And in some cases just feel like you’re putting up with people. And that was my first encounter, and I’ll never forget it. And we became even after that, I was out of that organization. We remained dear friends until she passed away just a few years ago. And I am not exaggerating when I say I really loved her. She made our organization better. But wow. I’ll tell you a quick story about her. When I left that organization and we started NorthPoint, we were doing our first fundraiser (05:28): And (05:28): It was not going well because again, we’re just making this up as we went along. And she came up to me after an event and she said, Andy, she was very direct, Andy, I mean just Andy. She made some comments about this isn’t going well. And then she said, what do you think God’s trying to tell you? And I said, well, I think God’s trying to tell me that I come up with a very good funder. I don’t know. This is not worth about Suzy Gray (06:00): Something I need to know. Andy Stanley (06:01): And she just said something, I was just kind of marched off. But I thought, you know what? She’s worth it. She’s a phenomenal person. So part of this is just keeping some of these things in context and deciding what’s the win and what’s the goal. And the goal isn’t to like everybody or even to be liked by everybody. That’s part of the leadership landscape Suzy Gray (06:22): Though. I think what you said is so true because when you decide they’re worth it Andy Stanley (06:27): And Suzy Gray (06:27): I’m going to lean in, you end up appreciating ’em more. And really, really, I mean for me as well and my leadership history, really enjoying them because you appreciate, they think different than I do. They bring something to the table. If that voice wasn’t there, we would be in trouble. And it’s worth a little bit of whatever it is, contrarian or a little bit of negativity to make sure that you don’t run headlong into something that you haven’t investigated everything that needs to be investigated. So it is exactly what you said. You have to check yourself and realize they’re worth it and they’re worth investing in. And then on the back end, you end up really appreciating and ultimately enjoying them. Andy Stanley (07:10): Yeah. I don’t know if this is true, and I’m not a big NBA person, but I heard this three years ago that Michael Jordan did not attend the team meetings before games. Suzy Gray (07:20): Really? Andy Stanley (07:21): No. He would apparently go find a closet somewhere and just be by himself. And at some point other players would complain, Suzy Gray (07:32): We have to go to meetings. Where Andy Stanley (07:33): Are you? Yeah, Michael doesn’t come to the meetings. And the response was, he’s Michael Jordan, and that’s okay. His contribution, he doesn’t have, it’s okay. This isn’t about fair. This is about winning games. (07:46): And (07:47): The reason I remember that is because the person who told me that story told me that story in relationship to somebody that worked for me (07:55): Who I just had to learn to lead differently. In fact, the joke was when he hit his 10 year mark with us, and I was thanking him in front of the staff, I said about him, I said, the way I lead him is he goes out into the woods ahead of the rest of us, and he comes back every once in a while and reports on what’s up there. So while the rest of you follow along behind me, the leader, he’s somewhere else out in the woods. He’s out in the woods, but he is for us and he’s for you. And then he comes back and he reports on the future. And that was my way of saying, you’re right. I don’t treat him like I do everybody else. Suzy Gray (08:30): He requires a different kind of Andy Stanley (08:31): Leadership. He requires a different kind of leadership, and he’s so valuable. It is worth breaking the traditional rules because of the value he brings to the organization. And it doesn’t work if everybody’s that way. But the point of this conversation is, and again, I wouldn’t even call him a difficult person, but it was difficult for other people because I did treat him and I owned that. And on those few occasions, somebody would come to me privately and complain. I would just go, you’re right. He’s worth it, the value he adds to this organization. So I just think at some point in our maturity, in our growing up as leaders, we have to recognize that we don’t have to love everybody the same. We don’t have to enjoy everybody the same. We keep the big picture in mind, and we try to create an environment where even the more difficult people can thrive because again, oftentimes they bring so much to the table. Suzy Gray (09:30): So our conversation today has really been about how do you manage and lead people that are worth keeping in the organization because of what they do for the organization. But what about if it’s the flip side? What about if you realize that you’re having less energy to manage the organization to move things forward because you’re spending so much energy managing that difficult person, how do you know when it’s time for them to go? Andy Stanley (09:53): That’s a really important question. But real quick to our podcast listeners before I answer that question, and Suzy, that’s a great question. I want to take just a moment to talk about something that has been a nutritional game changer for me and for Sandra. And that is a G one. Ag one has become a simple daily habit that supports our overall wellbeing. So every morning we grab one scoop, we mix it with water, and just like that, we know we are covering our nutritional basis for the entire day. We have been AG one fans for months and months, and when they reached out to us and ask us to be a podcast sponsor, that was an easy yes. And here’s why we stick with it. It’s easy. 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Suzy Gray (11:27): So today we’ve talked about what does it look like when a person is worth fighting for and worth learning how to deal with whatever it is that makes them difficult because they add so much value to the organization. But what about the flip side of that? What do you do when you feel like instead of leading the organization, I’m spending so much of my energy managing this difficult person or having other people come around and talking to me about this difficult person? So yeah, so the question really was have you ever had a situation where you bent and bent and then you wind up realizing it’s not worth it anymore? Andy Stanley (11:59): Yes, yes. That’s difficult. And the two occasions that fit that description, fortunately because these were smart people, they knew, I mean, they knew because we were having more and more conversations about the same thing. It’s like, Hey, you can’t, Hey, I’ve given you flexibility. I don’t mind this. You’re so productive, but you can’t do this or you can’t talk to them that way, or you’ve got to attend. I need you to show up on time. When you don’t show up on time, it shows disrespect for the rest of the team. There were just those functional things. And again, and you sort of alluded to it in the way that you asked the question, when it begins to impede other people’s progress, when other people feel like they’re having to work around (12:45): The work around, and as a leader, it’s something that you sense, it’s not a mystery. And if you’re like me, you put it off because now there’s a relationship. You care about this person. They’ve added so much value, they haven’t really done anything wrong. It’s just not worth it anymore. I think it’s the simple way to say it. It it’s just not worth it anymore. And in both of the occasions I’m thinking about, they sensed that. They sensed that. So it was a fond farewell. They’re doing amazing things. Both of these individuals started organizations that are thriving because they’re extraordinary leaders. And I hated losing their giftedness in the organization, but I just couldn’t manage them within the context of this organization anymore. And in both cases, we’re still dear friends. So it was a happy ending. And here’s the thing, if you wait too long, it’s not going to be a happy ending. It’s not going to be a happy ending again. Right? Going back to our conversation last week, you have a bucket full of frustration that you just keep putting stuff in there and putting stuff in there and putting stuff in there. So as a leader, you got to monitor that. But I would say to our podcast listeners, hang on to them. As long as is (13:59): Healthy, (14:00): You hang on as long as you, I don’t want to say as long as you possibly can, as long as it’s healthy. When it becomes unhealthy, then you have those difficult conversations. And in some cases, they can change the behavior because they’re so committed to the organization, Hey, just tell me what to do. And in one case, this particular individual said that, just tell me what I need to do. And I said to this person, I said, no, I just think it’s time. You’ve sort of outgrown this organization and you’re too good. So it worked out, (14:31): But (14:31): It’s something you sense. There are no hard and fast rules, but it is okay to let Michael Jordan go warm up in his own head in the closet if he needs to, because the goal isn’t to have a wonderful team meeting and sing Kumbaya. It’s to win games and points on the board. Again, I don’t know if that’s a true story, somebody listening, I’m sure knows. So yes, you make exceptions for certain players, but at the same time, the health of the organization is something to keep in mind as well. Suzy Gray (14:59): That’s such a great takeaway, Andy. Thank you for sharing these insights. And to our listeners, thank you for joining us for this episode of Reverb. Before we leave, we have one ask, and that’s to subscribe. By subscribing you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep improving, bringing you great guests and great content to help you as a leader. And be sure to visit Andy stanley.com/podcast where you’ll find more resources to help you go further, faster. Comments are closed.