By Allen Haynes • December 9, 2024 Listen to the podcast. Suzy Gray (00:02): Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb. A deeper dive into this month’s podcast topic designed to help leaders go even further faster. I’m your host, Suzy Gray, and today we’re continuing our conversation on leadership legacy. If you haven’t already listened to last week’s episode with John Maxwell, I highly recommend starting there. Andy and John had an incredibly rich discussion about building your legacy. Now, not later. For today’s episode, we’ll focus on how Andy has developed his legacy over the years. But before we get to that, Andy, what were your thoughts on your conversation with John? I thought it was great. Andy Stanley (00:37): Yeah, it was great. And for our listeners who skipped that one, you need to go back and listen. John is a sage. I mean he’s, what did he see? 70? 77. 77. And he continues to learn at the end. He said he has 13 more books to write. Made me tired. I’m trying to write another book. And then that statement he made that when you can afford to quit is when you can’t afford to quit, is how he said it. You can afford to quit. His point was, we think about finish lines and professional finish lines, whatever, finish lines. And then he says, if you have finish lines, then you’re finished. And leaders should never consider being finished. I almost brought this up in the conversation. My dad used to say it this way. He would say, I know this was when he was in his eighties. He would say, I know when I sit down, I’m not going to get back up. It’s like, I don’t want to have a finish line. I don’t want to quit. I don’t want to retire. Why would I do that? And anyway, so it was a great conversation and because I’ve known John for so many years, I feel like I know what his legacy is going to be, (01:40): And when I ask him what he wanted it to be, it’s pretty much what people who know John know it’s going to be. He just makes people better and he’s invested in people. And his legacy won’t be an organization that he’s built and he’s built several. It’s just going to be his investment in leaders and people personally and globally. And so Suzy Gray (02:00): I loved what he said at the end. My name is John and I’m your friend. Andy Stanley (02:03): He always says that Suzy Gray (02:04): I know Andy Stanley (02:04): Every time I’ve heard him speak, when it’s about to say something challenging or he knows it might get people uncomfortable, he will say, now my name is John. I’m your friend. I’m your friend. Okay, I’m not coming after you. I’m trying to make you better. You may be tempted to take this the wrong way, but my name is John. I’m your friend. Suzy Gray (02:23): Your friend. Andy Stanley (02:24): It was great. So I believe Suzy doing a podcast on the topic of legacy was your idea. Suzy Gray (02:30): It was, Andy Stanley (02:31): Yeah, because it wasn’t my idea. And when you told me the topic, I at first thought, oh, I don’t know if I want to do this because I have mixed feelings about choosing a legacy or leaning into or trying to develop a legacy. There’s something on the surface and I’ve backed up from what I’m about to say. There’s something that seems a little bit self-serving about. I want my legacy to be this thing that I’m shooting toward. The assumption being that when I’m gone, people are going to remember me Suzy Gray (03:03): Because Andy Stanley (03:03): My assumption is when I’m gone other than my grandkids, nobody’s going to remember me and nobody’s going to remember most of us, which is a back door to the importance of legacy. Because as we talked about with John, legacy is different than reputation. Reputation is what people think of you now. Legacy is what or who you leave behind. And it is actually, and again, I am so glad you forced me into this thinking about this because I just have had sort of a bad attitude about people want to have a legacy. We will all have a legacy Suzy Gray (03:40): Definitely. Andy Stanley (03:40): And we should be intentional about it. And I’ve realized in preparing for the podcast and in talking to John, that there’s something selfish actually about refusing to think about legacy because refusing to think about my impact or your impact or anybody’s impact, refusing to think about our impact on the next generation, or even if it’s our family is selfish. It’s like, I don’t need to worry about it. I don’t need to bother with that. I just need to live for me. When I’m gone, I’m gone. And it doesn’t matter. It does matter. It does matter because there is a wake behind us relationally for everyone. (04:15): And if I’m not intentional and if I say I don’t care, and I’m not willing to give it any thought, there’s something selfish about that. So I just want to thank you publicly on the Leadership podcast for forcing me into this topic to talk about and think about legacy. And the first thing that comes to my mind is my children. Because I think ultimately my children are my legacy. And I used to tell my dad this because we would talk about the future his last three years or so, he was at home all the time, and I could just show up anytime and we would have these fascinating conversations. And I would say to him as he talked about his ministry and all the stuff, I would say, well, and I would sort of tongue in cheek, I would say, I hate to break it to you, but I’m your legacy. Not because I’m special, but because I’m your son and in his case, I’m doing what he did professionally following in his footsteps. So there’s that reality. And I think every parent, regardless if you’re in leadership or formal leadership, every parent needs to think about that. (05:16): Our kids are a legacy, which means to sacrifice at home in order to do something professionally that somebody else is going to do is a terrible trade off. Why would I trade what nobody else can do for what I know somebody else is going to do because somebody else is going to have my job. And I think what he shared about his conversation with Jack Welch, once Jack Welch left ge, the company, it didn’t tank, but it certainly dipped. And he looked back and realized, oh, I was all about the company. I wasn’t really about the company. I was about the company while I was there, my reputation, but not necessarily about who’s going to take it further faster. So as leaders circling back around to leadership legacy, it really is about people. And it really is about being able to look back and see a group of people in terms of leadership who are better leaders because of our investment in them, either directly or indirectly. And that’s the leadership legacy Suzy Gray (06:10): Is Andy Stanley (06:10): Other leaders. Because even the most significant companies, eventually they go out of business or they change names or they change brands or they change, and it’s the leaders We’ve had Frank Blake on the podcast, he talked a lot about this, about preparing the person to follow him at Home Depot and now he’s helped transition yet the person behind the person that followed him. And as I know Frank personally, home Depot isn’t his legacy, the leadership and the fact that the company thrived under his leadership and continued to thrive once he left. Those are the kinds of things all of us should think about because the leaders we invest in, some of them will actually work in the organizations we’re in, but many of them are going to leave and do other things. And I’ve had the privilege of seeing both happen. People leave our organization and go on to do amazing things. And when you end well, that’s part of Suzy Gray (06:59): Legacy, Andy Stanley (07:00): And you continue to have those relationships even though you don’t want people to leave or they get better opportunities. That’s leadership legacy. That’s relational legacy. It goes back to what John said about our character and our integrity, and then that unfortunate reality that we will not be remembered necessarily for our finest hours, but our final hours. It’s very sobering, and I’m not going to mention names and I didn’t want to with John, but we know some men who did extraordinary things, but they did not end well, morally, ethically. And when those names cross my mind or people who know them or know what they did, unfortunately, it’s how they ended. And you hate to say that’s their legacy, but their legacy is a warning to future leaders of what can happen. Well, nobody sets out to have my legacy is to be a warning of what can go wrong that’s nobody shoots for that. Right? In fact, and the gentlemen and the three I’m thinking about were male again, they spent much of their time warning against the very thing that happened to them. They became, Suzy Gray (08:05): Yeah. Andy Stanley (08:06): So it is a warning. It’s something to think about, Suzy Gray (08:08): And it overshadows the legacy that they could have had. Andy Stanley (08:10): Oh, it overshadows unfortunately, the good work that they did that in some cases their books are taken off bookshelves. That publisher, it is not fair, but it’s real. Suzy Gray (08:21): It’s real. Andy Stanley (08:22): And life isn’t fair. So the point being this really is a super important topic because to ignore it is selfish and ultimately has the potential to undermine the life that we’ve lived and the gifts that we’ve given to the world and the opportunities we’ve given other people. So it’s a big deal. So asking the question, what do I hope my legacy is? And this is why I asked John at the end of the conversation to say to the maybe 20-year-old leaders, but certainly 30, 40, 50, we at least need some idea. We need some sort of picture. It may change every five or 10 years, but there needs to be something that we’re thinking about that when I’m gone, not what will people think about me? That’s not the question. It’s what am I leaving behind? How have I made the world a better place, even if it’s because of one individual I invested in, but how did I make the world? How did I leave the world a better place? That’s the question. And that forces me to face my selfishness, my self-centeredness, the idea that once I can afford to quit, I can afford to quit. And John says, no, when you can afford to quit, your best days are ahead because now you can afford to really spend your time and your energy where it matters the most, which is, as I quoted our friend Tim Elmore, more time with fewer people equals greater impact. And when you can financially afford to do that, you do that. But if you’re not thinking legacy, you’re just going to go play golf, Suzy Gray (09:48): Do whatever you’re going to do. I don’t Andy Stanley (09:48): Play golf. I’m not going to play golf. You’re just going to go, oh, I’m retired and I can go do whatever I want to do, and you don’t know what you’re missing out on. He said, no, that was so good, wasn’t it? Suzy Gray (09:58): It was so good. He said, if you quit at that harvest time of your life, you don’t know Andy Stanley (10:02): What you lost. Yeah. You Suzy Gray (10:03): Never know. Don’t even know what’s on the other side that you could have been part of. Andy Stanley (10:06): Exactly. The good news is you won’t regret it, you won’t know. But the bad news is there’s something you left on the table. And that quote that I brought his attention that really it is on a little sticky note on my desktop that what we clinging to diminishes what we give away, multiplies what we clinging to diminishes what we give away multiplies. And to think about somebody who is successful professionally and at the end they got all the stuff, they got the reward, not just the success they’ve got the rewards of success and the flexibility that comes with success and they clinging to it and what happens, it just diminishes. So anyway, so this is a big topic, but legacy, again, it’s not the company somebody built or the organization they built. It really is for leaders. It’s the leaders that go on to do amazing things. And when our names, if our names cross their mind, they think about the investment we made in them, not the organizations necessarily that we built or both. Suzy Gray (11:05): I’ve heard you talk about your north star of leadership, and when I think about you and I think about what would I say about you, you said, John, what would you say about your legacy? And then you said, here’s what I’d say about your legacy. I’ve heard you talk about your north star of leadership all these years we’ve been together. And I feel like that is going to end up being part of your legacy of, you’ve always said, I want to be a leader worth following, but that’s because you want to teach others what it means to have all of the things that you guys talked about, have moral authority, have congruency between what you say and what you do. All of those things make you a leader worth following. And to me, that’s your legacy. So it was funny to me when you were like, oh, I don’t know about talking about that. I thought, well, I feel like that is inherent in who you are in relationship that well. Can Andy Stanley (11:56): I say something about that? Suzy Gray (11:57): Yeah. Andy Stanley (11:57): Because that has always been a North Star goal for me. I never thought of that in terms of legacy, which was my miss. I just thought about it. Oh, I want to be a leader with following when I’m no longer here. Or people who used to work with us or with me, they’d be like, he wasn’t the greatest leader, the greatest leader. But you know what? There was that integrity, but I never thought of that in terms of legacy. I just thought of it in terms of a goal. But that falls into that category because (12:28): If I can leave that behind, if that’s what’s left behind me in terms of an example, and specifically if I can dive a little bit deeper on that, in our world, there’s a perception, and this is always going to be the case, that in order to really accomplish things or to accomplish great things, you have to be a bit of something. I won’t say out loud on our podcast that he’s a guy, he’s rough around the edges and he’s rude, hard charging. He’s hard charging, and he doesn’t really care about people. And there’s always, there’s chaos everywhere he or she goes, but look at what they accomplished. And the assumption, especially for young leaders, if you’re 30 years old or in your thirties, this is what you’re going to be tempted to think. You’re going to be tempted to think, I can either be a person of extraordinary integrity and politeness and and caring about people, or I can accomplish amazing things. (13:20): But it’s one or the other. It is not one of or the other. It isn’t. The problem is the rude, brash people get lots of attention because they’re rude and brash and loud. But if you think that is a leadership strategy or that’s critical to leadership success, you are 100% wrong. And I will predict your future for you. You may make a lot of money and you may build something big, but when your name crosses people’s minds, they are not going to think good things about you because it is about how you treat people and you can treat people well and do well and do great things. So my point is, it’s something to think. Not only is it okay to be that way, maybe it’s necessary to be that way in order to accomplish something greater, to lead in a great way. And it’s just not in terms of legacy. (14:15): I would hope that I would be an example of somebody who accomplished some great things but didn’t feel like I had to treat people poorly in order to quote, get things done. You do leave some things on the table. You do walk away from some opportunities. You may possibly not accomplish as much. I don’t know. I’m just guessing. But so what? What’s most important, important look in the eyes of your kids or your spouse or your best friends and say, Hey, what’s most important? And at the end of the day, that’s legacy thinking. And honestly, this conversation brought me full circle with that. Suzy Gray (14:53): That’s really great. Well, I can tell you, your legacy will be being a leader worth following Andy Stanley (14:58): Unless, yeah, unless I do something really stupid here at the end, and every time I see a leader just ditch their reputation, I go home and I say, Sandra, I feel like I should quit now before that. I mean, I don’t sense anything on the perimeter or bad habits or anything, but it’s just, it’s scary. Especially when you find out, wait, so the whole time they’re doing all this great stuff, they got this other thing going on and it was a dragon they didn’t deal with. You deal with your demons or they go into the cellar of your soul and lift weights, that whole thing, and they just didn’t deal with their demons anyway. Suzy Gray (15:38): Well, even if it’s not demons, it could be something that’s just cancel culture related that. Andy Stanley (15:42): Yeah. Well, that’s Suzy Gray (15:42): True. Mars too. I mean, it’s an interesting season Andy Stanley (15:45): That we have no control over how the world responds to what we do or think they think we did. Suzy Gray (15:51): Exactly. Andy Stanley (15:51): But you don’t give up. You just keep going, keep going Suzy Gray (15:54): And Andy Stanley (15:54): Live with a clear conscience. And if your children and your family respect you, they know you the most, know you best, you’re good, you’re good. It’s when you’re having to pretend at home or you’re hoping what’s at home doesn’t become public, then it will eventually, it will just wait. Suzy Gray (16:13): So what would you say to a leader that’s like, wow, I feel like I’ve been more focused on driving the bottom line than lifting up leaders. What would you say to that leader if they’re in their thirties or forties or even fifties and saying, wow, I think I’ve really missed this. I think it’s really been more about the, it is what Jack Welch said, I’ve been more about the organization than the leaders in the organization. Andy Stanley (16:38): Yeah, I would say it’s a fundamental decision. Am I willing to deal with less success, public success (16:48): And more impact ultimately? Or am I just going to play a hundred percent to the success of the organization or my reputation or whatever it might be? And who cares how it affects other people? And nobody would say that. And part of it is being willing to acknowledge that, hey, maybe the time I carve out for this other thing that doesn’t seem urgent, like I’m going to have lunch once a week with the second tier or third tier leaders or the everybody in this organization that’s in their twenties or whatever that looks like. Or you pick the four or five potential leaders, maybe even outside your organization, and you prioritize that time to realize that’s probably not going to impede your public success. And the reason, even though I don’t know who I’m talking to right now, and they’re like, well, you don’t know my situation. Here’s what I would guess. You’re so good. You’re going to be successful. (17:43): And if you’re a leader, there’s always going to be people following you. You can’t help it. You just can’t help it. So trust that talent and trust your track record, you’re going to be fine. And the time you carve out for the other, as you think about investing in the leaders coming along behind you, first of all, you’re going to learn things you wouldn’t know in any other way. You’re going to be a better leader if you listen to younger leaders. And John talked about that again, that whole first part of the conversation about Catalyst. I mean, he really risked alienating the entire core audience. He had spent years developing by saying, I’m going to do conferences. And now you’re not invited. You’re Suzy Gray (18:24): Not invited. Andy Stanley (18:24): You’re literally not Suzy Gray (18:25): Invited. You’re too old. Andy Stanley (18:26): You are too old to come to my conference, even though you bought my books and listened to my tapes and followed me for years. Those bold decisions that didn’t make him less successful, he didn’t lose anything. He did exactly what he said all those years ago to me. He said, if you clinging to something, it diminishes you. Give it away. You let it go, it multiplies. And that’s what he did. So I would say to the leaders listening, you’re going to be fine. You may miss something along the way, but what you gain in terms of not just legacy but influence, it’s worth it. When you get to be my season of life, you’re not going to look back and say, I wish I hadn’t wasted all that time meeting with those young leaders. What a poor use of my, you are not going to say that. You’re going to say you wish you had done Suzy Gray (19:08): More, Andy Stanley (19:09): But the reason you didn’t, if I can push is fear. You’re afraid you won’t be as successful. You’re afraid that you’re afraid. If what if I get that? We all live with that. But hey, you’re a leader. You just acknowledge that fear and decide I’m not going to let that direct me. And you figure out how to invest in the people around you. And there’s seasons. I’ve done that. Well, there’s seasons. I got too busy. And Diane, my admin assistant, this is how she would say it. She would say, who are your leaders? Who are your people? Who’s your group? Who are you investing? Well, I had lunch with, so now lunch with so-and-So no, no. Who are you meeting with on a regular basis to where they can just catch what you do the way you do it? Because it’s more caught than taught Suzy Gray (19:53): Because Andy Stanley (19:54): They’re smart, they’re leaders. They don’t need me to hold their hand and give them a lesson every time we get together’s, what Suzy Gray (19:57): John said about proximity. Andy Stanley (19:59): Proximity, who has proximity in the environments where they can ask questions and you can say, Hey, I don’t know everything about that, but here’s what I know about it. Go figure out the rest with somebody else. But you got to have that. And there are people around. I’m saying to our podcast listeners, there are people around you who would just die to have that kind of proximity. But you got to pick ’em. You got to be choosy. Do not try to be fair. This isn’t a one size fits all. You recognized the young version of you in your organization or outside your organization and figure it out. And I’m so grateful John was able or willing to give me time back when he first moved to Atlanta, he didn’t know me. And I was in a restaurant. You know how I met John? I was in a restaurant. I’ve been listening to his tapes for years. Remember tapes? Suzy Gray (20:44): Yeah. Andy Stanley (20:45): I’m in a restaurant with Randy Pope, another pastor in Atlanta. We’re having lunch and I hear John Maxwell’s voice in the restaurant. Suzy Gray (20:52): Oh, you’d recognize the voice. Andy Stanley (20:53): Yes. And I stopped. I said, Randy, Randy, John Maxwell is in this restaurant, no lie. And I stood up and I looked around and I saw John. I went over and introduced myself. That’s how I met John. I just heard his voice. And then he just gave me opportunities and I would call him and he’d just make himself available. And that’s all I know about that. Suzy Gray (21:14): Well, that’s amazing. And I think what this conversation reminds me of is it’s really about being deliberate, thinking Andy Stanley (21:22): About deliberate. It’s a great word. Suzy Gray (21:24): Thinking about Andy Stanley (21:25): It’s never urgent, Suzy Gray (21:26): Right? It’s never urgent. But it has to be planned and it has to be deliberate. And it’s thinking about that future ahead, not just the task in front of you. Andy Stanley (21:34): So Suzy Gray (21:35): I think, Andy Stanley (21:36): And there’s always a task in front of Suzy Gray (21:39): Me, always, Andy Stanley (21:39): Always, here comes Sunday, here comes something. And anyway, go Suzy Gray (21:44): Ahead. So that’s an important reminder to me, and I’m sure that’s an important reminder to all of our podcast audience. Well, Andy, thank you for being willing to talk about this topic of legacy. Andy Stanley (21:53): Thank you for making me talk about it. I can’t wait to find out what you’re going to make me talk about next. Suzy Gray (21:58): That’s right. Andy Stanley (21:59): Fascinating. Suzy Gray (22:00): So before we leave, we have one ask, and that’s to subscribe by hitting follow on whatever app you listen to. Asan, you help us grow the audience, which helps us keep improving and bring great guests with great content. And be sure to visit the Andy stanley.com website where you’ll find more resources to help you go further, faster. Comments are closed.