By Allen Haynes • August 5, 2024 Listen to the episode. Andy Stanley (00:02): Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, A conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy Stanley, and before we jump into today’s content, I want to talk about a special offer from our friends at belay. If you’re listening to this podcast, it’s because you’re invested in growing as a leader, but we all know leadership doesn’t happen by accident. It happens when we’re honest with the person in the mirror and when we’re intentional about investing our time and attention in the right things. And that’s something that our sponsor Belay understands. BELAY is passionate about helping busy leaders find the help they need to grow their leadership and their organizations. With a belay, virtual assistant or accounting professional, you can stop spending time on tedious tasks that drain you and start focusing on well, what really matters most. So if you find yourself overwhelmed with administrative or accounting tasks that aren’t the best use of your time, BELAY can help you find the right hire. (01:02): Right now, this month, belay is giving away a free leadership toolkit to help you delegate the details, unleash your productivity, and take your leadership to the next level. To find out more or to receive this free gift, just text the word Andy to 5 5, 1, 2, 3. That’s Andy, A and DY to 5, 5, 1, 2, 3 for your free copy. That’s Andy, a and DY to 5, 5, 1, 2, 3, to get intentional about your leadership with help from belay. And now let’s jump into today’s content. Today we’re talking about managing organizational tension, something that every organization wrestles with, and as we’re about to discover, organizational tension is not only natural, it’s actually necessary. And when the tension goes away, it actually means the organization has gone away. It just never goes away until the organization goes away. And once again, joining me to unpack this extraordinarily important topic is my co-host, Susie Gray. Suzy Gray (02:00): Thanks Andy. And as we start our conversation today, I think it would be interesting to address a question that seems obvious, but may not be as obvious as it seems on the surface. And that question is, why is it important for leaders to address organizational tension at all? Andy Stanley (02:16): It is an important question, even though the answer seems obvious. And I think the definition of the word tension kind of answers that question. So I actually looked up the word tension. So here’s kind of a dictionary definition. Attention is the act of stretching or straining, which organizationally, that’s goal setting, right? Stretching and straining. Another definition, the state of being stretched or strained. That’s just the nature of a job, responsibility within the context of an organization that’s attention. A second definition is the state of being stretched or strained, which everybody listening understands that because they’re currently being stretched or strained, this has to do organizationally with chasing new opportunities or responding to new economic realities. Stretched and strained can be positive. We’re trying to get something done or it can be negative. We’re trying to keep something from happening or solving something. And then the other definition around tension has to do with mental or emotional strain. (03:09): So tension is not just the reality of life. Tension is a reality of organizational life. And it’s why I say when the tension goes away, the organization has gone away, right? It’s like if you think personally, the only way for you to have no tension in your life or in your body is to die. I wasn’t going to let you say it is to die, right? Yeah. I mean, it is. Yeah. It just doesn’t go away. It’s not supposed to go away. But within the context of relationships and organizations, there’s something in all of us that wants to solve the tension away or get rid of the tension or rid ourselves of the tension. And so the question you ask at the top is so important is part of dealing with organizational tension or tension is accepting the fact it doesn’t ever go away. It’s not even supposed to. (03:57): And if it ever does, things are not going well. Things are moving in probably the wrong direction. That tension is necessary for any living organism or any thriving organization. But unfortunately, the term usually carries a negative connotation, right? Tension, tension, tension. But every successful organization, every thriving organization, every organization that we look at and say, wow, wouldn’t it be nice? They are managing some tensions. And those are tensions that are part of their success. It’s a natural part of organizational life. It’s risk taking, it’s progress, it’s innovation, it’s growth. All of those things require tension. So there are healthy tensions that never go away, shouldn’t go away, or you’re moving the wrong way. Suzy Gray (04:40): Well, that’s very true. I do think that when you hear the word tension, you do think negative first. And so I think it is an interesting concept of the idea of healthy tension. It seems a little counterintuitive because you had described one of the definitions as chasing new opportunities. Well, I think of that as that would be fun or that would be invigorating. I don’t usually associate it with tension. And so I imagine there’s some leaders saying, well, wait a second, tension isn’t a good thing. I don’t want tension in my organization. But you’re saying tension can in fact be a good thing and it doesn’t and shouldn’t all be Andy Stanley (05:17): Resolved. And that brings us to the tension about the tension that I want to unpack for a few minutes. When we created language in our organization years ago around this that we’ll get to in just a minute, this really has become part of our organizational language, the language we use around tension, the distinction that we’re going to make in just a minute. There’s a difference between problems that need to be solved and tensions that need to be managed. And this is kind of the heart of this. There’s a difference between problems that need to be solved. You solve a problem, but you don’t solve attention. You manage or you monitor attention, especially the tensions that shouldn’t go away. And if you confuse the two, you end up the organization. If you confuse the two, you end up solving or trying to solve attention that’s actually good for the organization. (06:04): So you solve a problem, but you manage or monitor attention. And again, when we introduced this language into our organization many years ago, it was so helpful, especially for people who were new to our organization or people who were new to the workplace. They were right out of college or right out of graduate school, and everything’s a problem to be solved, and we need to solve all the tension away. And they weren’t oftentimes aren’t comfortable living with unresolved tension. They think something’s wrong. Why don’t we address this? Why don’t we fix this? We got to fix it. And we’ve been here a long time and we’re like, no, welcome to the show. That’s right. Welcome to the real world. Welcome Suzy Gray (06:45): To organizational Andy Stanley (06:45): Life. Just like your body is constantly managing tensions and balancing tensions in the same way a healthy organization is doing the same thing. Yeah. Suzy Gray (06:55): Well, give us an example of a problem to solve versus attention to manage. Andy Stanley (07:00): I think the one that most of us are most familiar with is something that most of us are doing right now. We are managing the tension between home life and work life between career and family. That’s a tension to manage. There’s never enough time to spend the time I want to with everybody in my family. There’s not enough time at work to get everything done. If you’re in an organization or a company or you have a job that you love, there’s just always, there’s always that tension. And that’s not a problem to solve. If the only way to solve the problem is to quit my job so I can be at home and do everything I need to do for everyone at home. But that creates a new problem. Suzy Gray (07:35): Exactly. Or Andy Stanley (07:36): I can just ignore my family and just devote the lion’s share of my time and affection and emotion and energy to work. And then I don’t have a family. You create a Suzy Gray (07:47): Massive Andy Stanley (07:48): Problem. I create a worse problem. That’s exactly right. And this is so important. This is true. As we look at some organizational examples in just a minute, if you solve a healthy tension, you create oftentimes an unsolvable problem. And so recognizing the difference between problems to solve, intentions to manage, that’s our language. Is this a problem to solve or a tension to manage, problem to solve, tension to manage. And once we’re able to identify that, then we approach those two things very differently. But if you don’t have that language, everything is going to feel like a problem. Problem to solve, to solve. And again, some of our podcast listeners haven’t gotten past the, oh, yeah, that’s what I’m dealing with at home. There’s just not enough of me to go around and maybe somebody at home sees that as a problem to solve. It’s attention to manage. Suzy Gray (08:40): Okay, so we’ve talked about our home versus work life, but what about an organizational example of Andy Stanley (08:45): This? A couple in our organization that our podcast listeners are smart enough to transfer this or contextualize this for us. We have a central organization, and then we have multiple campuses that are all part of the same 5 0 1 C3 organization. So in our organization, there’s a tension between the local campus and the central organization, which is common with franchise organizations or restaurants. There’s a lot of organizations that have the central versus the retail outlets or whatever it might be. So we actually, when we introduce people into jobs, either at central or at the campus level, we give them this language. We say, now you’re stepping into a role and there’s going to be a tension, a healthy tension between what the campuses want to do sometimes and what Central wants to provide for the campuses. And nobody’s right, nobody’s wrong. This is just attention. And if we manage this tension well, everybody is better. (09:42): All the best ideas work their way up the food chain quickly. And the best solutions to actual problems do as well. But if we ever try to solve the tension, then really we lose the best of our organization. We don’t have the best of either. We have the worst of both. The worst of both. So if Central has their way constantly and the local churches aren’t able to create local expressions of what we’re trying to do, that’s a loss for the local church. But if nine or 10 different local churches have their way Central isn’t able to provide goods and services for any of them, and you Suzy Gray (10:20): Lose economies of scale, Andy Stanley (10:22): You lose all of those synergies. You lose huge economies of scale, and everything is more expensive. Everything’s more chaotic, and there’s just trouble. We’ve had to learn to manage this tension as the leader. And we’ll talk more about this in just a minute. My responsibility and the team I work with, a big part of our responsibility is to, again, I talked about managing the tension, but part of managing the tension is monitoring the tension because the energy slides back and forth, back and forth. We got a little bit too much of that. We need a little more of this and back and forth. So you’re constantly monitoring that tension. I think the other one in our organization that we have to manage all the time is the tension between excellence and economic reality. Well, I think Suzy Gray (11:07): That’s probably a big one for every organization. Andy Stanley (11:08): It is. Yeah. Humanly speaking, and I want to set it up that way, humanly speaking, we are an events organization. We create events for students, for children, for adults. We just create event after event after event. And events are expensive. How expensive, as expensive as you want them to be, how expensive you want, as much as you want to spend. And you put creative people on the front end of creating an event. And what is a budget? We need brighter, we need louder, we need better. We need upgrades. It just goes on and on and on. So there’s a constant tension between the excellence of our productions and the economic realities that we butt up against. Again, we dare not solve that tension. If we solve that tension, we either produce and excellence our way out of business financially. You get broke, you go broke, you go broke, or you cut back, cut back, cut back to the point that our productions lose their appeal, and consequently, it undermines the success of the organization. Suzy Gray (12:13): That is so true. And income and expenses is also a tension every organization has to manage. Andy Stanley (12:18): And again, if you try to solve that tension, you create a problem. If you solve the tension between income and expenses, you end up either spending your way out of business because, hey, forget the budget. We just got to spend, spend, spend, got to make this happen. Or you can conserve your way out of business. I mean, companies never save their way into success. You actually spend your way into success. But there are always financial constraints. So again, this is a tension and everybody listening, this isn’t new information. This may just be some new language around this information. And again, creating these categories for people helps the discussions go better when things have gone too far one way or the other, another tension that lots of organizations deal with is the tension between funding for marketing and funding for r and d for research and development. I mean, where does the money go? And there’s never enough for either. I mean, both sides want more of both. And I mean, you’ve come out of a world where that was a reality, right? Suzy Gray (13:18): Yeah. I mean, when telecom, I was in product development, and there was a natural tension between marketing and product development because the product has to be great, or else there’s nothing to market. It Andy Stanley (13:27): Has to be better than the competition. Exactly. Suzy Gray (13:30): But marketing is saying, but yes, but if you use all the money for r and d, then it doesn’t matter how great it is, you’re not going to ever be Andy Stanley (13:36): Able to know. Nobody’s going to know about it, know about it. Yeah. Nobody’s going to know about it. Exactly. Suzy Gray (13:38): And it is a big tension, especially in today’s world where marketing is so digitally centric, and you’ve got to create a good product, but if you don’t market it well in the digital world and pay attention to algorithms and all sorts of things, you’re not going to get seen. So I think this is a huge tension for probably most organizational leaders in today’s world. Andy Stanley (13:59): And it’s attention that leaders have to be comfortable living in. That’s right. It only goes away when the organization goes away. That’s kind of the bottom line. And again, it’s why it’s important for us to provide language for this. In fact, to some degree, providing language for this conversation around tension actually fixes a problem. Because the problem is it’s one or the other. The reality is it’s a little of both, and it’s never going to go away. When our teams are taught to recognize and discern the difference between tensions to manage and monitor versus problems to solve, things just go better. And people are better equipped to know how to have healthy conversations and even healthy debates that actually lead to sustained progress because they’re on the same page once everybody can agree, okay, there’s a tension. We’re feeling it organizationally, it’s even gotten a little between people that are in charge of certain divisions or departments in an organization. But the common ground is we all recognize we need each other. We dare not solve this. We’ve just got to figure out how to manage current reality to make this a healthy tension that advances the organization as opposed to everybody going into their silos and deciding, if I can’t have my way, then I’m going to become a problem for everybody else. Suzy Gray (15:16): Well, and I think that’s really important because your comment about you just have to name it. There is something in just saying, yes, we all recognize this as attention. We all recognize it, but we’re not going to resolve. It actually reduces the temperature in the room. It should, because sometimes it’s just, okay, they see what I see, and that is a relief. So I do think that you’re right on giving the organization language around it and then calling it out, using that language that you’ve identified in and of itself takes the temperature down, makes everybody know, okay, they see what I see. Now we can actually get to solving it. So Andy Stanley (15:52): If you have healthy and mature people, they recognize that quickly and are able to have a conversation within that context. Yeah, Suzy Gray (16:00): For sure. Well, how can leaders determine, I think this is a big thing that probably people are wondering as they’re listening to this conversation. How can leaders determine whether a situation requires solving or it’s just attention to manage Andy Stanley (16:15): Three comments. And I think these address what you just asked. The first one is this. And when a problem is actually solved, it should stay solved at least for a while. So when you try to solve a tension, it just keeps raising its ugly head. It never goes away. So when you find yourself with the same issue that comes up time and time and time again, and you think to yourself, we already talked about that. We already talked about, we already put that Suzy Gray (16:46): Risk. We already addressed that. Andy Stanley (16:47): We already addressed that. We already solve that. If it keeps showing up, chances are you have tried to solve attention because the tension doesn’t go away like a problem that is actually addressed and buttoned up and solve. So if something just keeps recurring over and over and over, that’s generally an indicator. Not always, but might be an indicator. Okay, you’ve tried to solve attention rather than putting different language around it and approaching it a different way. Suzy Gray (17:13): That makes a lot of sense. What about the second one? Andy Stanley (17:16): Yeah, a second thing to consider is that if the advocates on both sides of an issue are competent, individuals who refuse to give in, it’s a sign that probably this is a tension that needs to be managed rather than a problem that needs to be solved. In other words, if you listen to both sides and you’re like, they’re right and they’re right, yet they have a point, they have a point. That’s oftentimes an indicator both groups are arguing for, or both groups are advocating for something that’s very, very important. In other words, I can’t let either side lose this or lose this debate or we lose something in the organization. When you sense that, then you’ve stumbled upon attention that needs to be managed and monitored as opposed to a problem that needs to be solved. A third thing to think about as it relates to distinguishing between problems to solve and tensions to manage is if the two sides of a debate or a disagreement are actually interdependent, two divisions or departments are actually interdependent. (18:13): That in most cases, these are tensions that have to be monitored and managed, not problems to solve. And again, when you step back, it’s oftentimes easier to see how interdependent divisions and departments are. But in the heat of the moment or the specifics that are being debated, it’s easy to lose sight of that. So as leaders, this is when we have to step in and we can’t afford to let either side win because that means the organization loses. And we can’t let either side lose because that means the organization loses. And in a healthy organization, there is actual, not just perceived, there is actual interdependency, which means there are lots of tensions to manage and probably fewer problems to solve. So again, this is why leadership in this area is so important because, and you understand this, we have these discussions. You lead a big important part of our organization, and you’re the champion and the cheerleader for that part of the organization. (19:12): So of course, you kind of come in weighted toward what needs to be done, but at the same time, you’re mature enough to know this is only one facet of a larger organization. So again, maturity, insight, patience, and an understanding of the whole is so important. But again, depending on the work experience of the person who finds themselves dealing with this, how familiar they are with the organization, how new they are, people just need to be reminded, Hey, there are problems to be solved, but in this case, this is actually attention that we have to learn to manage and get along and manage it well together. Suzy Gray (19:49): Yeah, I mean, it is the case. It’s so true. Because if you think about going back to our marketing and r and d example, if r and d doesn’t produce something beautiful, marketing has nothing to market. But if all the dollars are taken away from marketing, then r and d can’t produce anything for marketing to talk about. So it is this idea of you’ve got to live in the tension of that is always going to live in organizational life, and so you just need to figure out what to do about it and not try to solve it. Andy Stanley (20:18): I’d like to say one more thing about that, and another part of leading through this is there are certain personalities that if they can’t get their way, they just take their toys and go home and go home. They just fold up and they’re like, well, then I’m not even going to try. I’m not. But you can’t have that. We need fierce advocates, fierce advocates for what they believe are important, and we need mature employees who are able to take a loss or compromise for the sake of the organization. It takes both. I don’t want anybody in this organization going, oh, they never do what I think they ought to do. They never take my ideas seriously. I’m not even going to bring it up anymore. I’m just going to go, just do my thing. Keep my head down. No, no, no, no, no. We need fierce advocates who understand tensions to manage versus problems to solve. And if you can get those kinds of people around, especially the most important initiatives or the most important tensions, the tensions that are actually healthy for the organization, then that’s a winning combination. You’ll get a lot done. You get a lot done. Suzy Gray (21:22): So now that we’ve talked about the difference between something that’s attention to manage versus a problem to solve, let’s talk about the role of leaders in managing that tension. It seems like finding that sweet spot of a healthy amount of healthy tension could come with a lot of trial and error. So how can a leader navigate these times of situations effectively? Andy Stanley (21:42): Yeah, well, we’ve touched on some of that. Number one, the leader has to weigh in. And when I say leader, not even just the leader of the whole organization, but wherever this tension sits in the department, department, vision, vision, wherever it might be, the leader needs to weigh in, keep these categories in mind. And again, as we’ve said, give people language. And one thing for those of us in leadership to remember is the weight of our words as a leader. And if you’re a leader, regardless of how many people you’re leading, this is so important. So I hope you won’t miss this. Your words are significant. In fact, your words carry significant influence. So it’s so essential for you to use your words carefully, thoughtfully, and sometimes sparingly, because as you know, our words can tip the scale possibly in the wrong direction because my words as the leader in an organization weigh more than the words of other people in the organization. (22:38): So when weighing in on an issue, leaders should seek to understand before seeking to be understood, as Stephen Covey famously said so many years ago, right? It’s not about winning an argument because this isn’t about right or wrong. It’s not about solving a problem. It’s about finding the best solution for the organization as a whole. And some words weigh more than others, and the source of the words determine the weight of the words. So because of that, just as you’re weighing into these things, just remember who you are and what you represent to the person on the other side of you. I’ve shared this before, my assistant Diane Grant, who’s worked with me for over 26 years, every once in a while I’ll be headed out to go talk to somebody about something and she’ll say, remember your words weigh a hundred pounds. Remember, you consider them a peer. (23:28): They do not consider you a peer. You are the boss. Remember that. And then every once in a while, she’ll say, you know what? I think? Let me go talk to them. My words weigh less, and this isn’t going to be great news for them. So again, just remembering that. And again, to bring this back into the context of this, if we’re managing attention, we have to be careful not to tip the scale. Our responsibility is to keep the tension in a healthy place, place. That’s the monitor part of it. And then the manage part of it, again, is just making sure that things are where they need to be and people understand what’s at stake. And while we’re on this, Susie, the other thing that we need to guard against are the strong personalities in our organization. And I love working with strong personalities. I really do. But that’s easy for me because I’m the boss. So I can just say, no, we’re not going to do Suzy Gray (24:23): That. We’re not going to do that. Andy Stanley (24:24): But again, so when you have two sides trying to navigate attention or find where’s the balance or where does this need to sit in terms of managing the tension, sometimes we need to call off the stronger personalities because they like to win, and they sometimes turn everything into a win-lose. But again, when we’re managing or monitoring attention, it’s not about win-lose. It’s about get the thing where it needs to be. And everybody decide, okay, nobody’s getting everything they want, but this is the healthiest place for the organization to be right now. So sometimes you just have to call off the stronger personalities because otherwise they’ll win. Next thing you know, they’ve solved a tension, which creates a problem which will end Suzy Gray (25:10): Up just popping back up Andy Stanley (25:11): Later. That’s exactly right. Suzy Gray (25:14): So for leaders who are facing tension in their teams, maybe for someone dreading an upcoming meeting or decision, can you provide any final practical advice for them? Andy Stanley (25:23): Yeah, I would say this, that at the beginning of a conversation, that is a tension that needs to be managed, the conversation that way. Say we’re about to talk about X, whatever X is. And as you know, this is a tension we are constantly managing, but I feel like we’re not managing it well. So now we’re not trying to solve anything. Nobody’s going to win. This isn’t an argument. We’re just trying to find the centerpiece that again, where we get the best of both and nobody feels like they’ve lost out that we’re highlighting the interdependency. And that means there’s going to be tension. So just start the conversation that way. Here’s why we’ve met. We’re trying to not solve a problem. We’re trying to find the right spot in terms of managing this tension as we go forward. And then just be proactive in addressing tensions before they escalate into a win-lose, solve it competition. (26:18): And again, if we’re not careful, those things fester over to the side. I don’t want to talk about it. I don’t want to mess with it. Here it is again, of course, here it is again, it’s a tension we’re constantly managing. But hey, I got to wade in and remind either new staff or people who’ve lost the plot line that, Nope, we don’t solve this. We manage this, we monitor this. If it’s creating more tension than it needs to, then let’s talk about it. But it’s going to be with us as long as we’re living and breathing because living and breathing organisms and organizations live with tension. Suzy Gray (26:49): Yeah, that is so good. Well, that wraps up another episode of the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. Thank you for listening. And before we leave, we have one ask, and it’s the only thing that we are going to ask you on this podcast, and that is to subscribe. By subscribing you, help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep improving and bringing you great guests and great content to help you as a leader go further, faster. And as always, be sure to visit the Andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that includes not only a summary of our discussion, but also questions for reflection or group discussion. And join us next week for our reverb episode where Andy and I will be digging even deeper on this topic of managing tension right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. 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