By Allen Haynes • December 2, 2024

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Andy Stanley (00:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. And before we get into today’s content, I wanted to thank Factor for sponsoring this episode. No prep, no mess meals, factor meals are ready to eat and eat in just two minutes. So head on over to factor meals.com/aslp 50 and use code aslp 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month. And now let’s jump into today’s podcast episode. So today we are discussing a topic that should be on every leader’s mind, but often gets pushed to the back burner. We’re talking about legacy. And legacy is different than reputation. A reputation is what people think about you. Currently, legacy is what people will associate with you or your name. Ultimately, a legacy is what we leave behind, which means no matter what stage of life you’re in or what stage of leadership you’re in, you’re actually building your legacy whether you realize it or not or whether you’re intentional or not.

(01:05):
So if you lead people, since this is a leadership podcast, if you lead people, you’re going to have a leadership legacy and the people you lead will associate something with your leadership and that includes your kids if you’re a parent. So we’re all going to end up somewhere as it relates to legacy. We might as well end up somewhere on purpose, right? Something we’re proud of. And who better to help us tackle this topic than the man who has not only written extensively on leadership but has lived out an incredible leadership legacy himself. No stranger to our podcast, my friend John Maxwell. Welcome John.

John Maxwell (01:39):
Man, it’s so joyful to be with you. I always love our time together, but when we can have time together talking about leadership and legacy with people that we want to add value to you, it’s really a good thing, isn’t it?

Andy Stanley (01:50):
It is. And again, as I’m going to share a little bit, you have inspired me in this area for the eight of you out there who do are not familiar with John, he’s been on the podcast several times. But John Maxwell is a bestselling author, speaker, coach and leader. He has sold over 35 million books, not a casual endeavor. His books and programs have trained, literally trained millions of leaders globally, which is why he’s the person to talk about this topic with John leads the Maxwell Leadership Foundation and equip impacting global leadership through values-based training. He’s recognized as the number one leader in business by the American Management Association and the world’s most influential leadership expert by Business Insider and Inc Magazine. But most importantly to me, he is a friend. He’s been my friend for many years. He’s been an encouragement to me in a very unique way.

(02:44):
Every once in a while I get myself in trouble. I’m usually by accident, and I will receive a card in the mail from John saying, keep going, Andy, you’re doing the right thing. Ignore the critics. And I tell you what, one handwritten note from John Counterbalances, a thousand strangers on the end of my social media feed. So John, thank you so much for being a part of this. And one more thing before I let you start talking. John also is the first person to invite me to speak on the topic of leadership for which I will be so very grateful. I had never spoken on this topic before. He invited me to be a part of a conference he launched years ago, which was certainly a brand change for him. Maybe we can talk a little bit about that. And he invited me to speak and said, you got to talk about leadership. I’m like, I’ve never spoken on that before and I have been speaking on the topic of leadership ever since. So again, extraordinary influence in my life, John. Anyway, so let’s talk about legacy and what’s going to be associated with us at the end. You go first and then I’ll just feed you some questions.

John Maxwell (03:47):
Thank you my friend. First of all, I remember, well, it was catalyst that many, many years ago I was talking to my team and I said, we need to raise up another generation of leaders younger than us obviously. And in our conversation I talked about you and I said, you need to lead it because you’re younger and you were already leading and building a great church. So you already leading, but you just really hadn’t yet expressed leadership and taught it.

(04:13):
And I really knew that you were the person to do it. And of course we started to remember right there in your church and it just took off and it had an incredible run. And very quickly that Baton was handed off to you because you were the one that really needed to lead it because of your age. And besides your terrific leader. And it’s one of my favorite things that we’ve launched, I go everywhere I go, Andy, I run into Catalyst people everywhere I go, kids come up to me and they just say it was a catalyst that that’s where I first got my leadership training. So when you’re thinking of legacy, again, my first thought was who do I get to really run the thing and who do I hand the baton off? And I really made that decision really at the same time. I said, let’s start Catalyst. In other words, it’s kind of like I started something new and already had the baton to hand off to somebody else to really run it, and it really worked out well. And of course you did such a fantastic job and it’s helped tens of thousands of people. So it worked. It’s really a legacy story in itself.

Andy Stanley (05:16):
And let me feed into that a little bit why that’s a legacy story. I had been to your previous conferences, they were completely different. I would bring our staff, I took copious notes and then suddenly, or not suddenly, well, I don’t know, it felt suddenly you decided I’m going to not leave behind, but I’m going to step away from the people in my season of life, your season of life back then

(05:40):
And reach lower. In fact, the first Catalyst conference this was dramatic was for leaders 40 years old and younger. So you essentially, and I want you to talk about this, you essentially uninvited your entire audience that you had spent years building into. And instead of trying to invite younger leaders to your current conference, I mean you crossed the trench, you didn’t try to straddle it, you crossed the trench, which was in some ways risky. But your commitment to the next generation of leaders, which is you’re part of your legacy, you made a huge decision. I mean, you basically said to people who supported you for years, you’re not invited to this conference. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because that big decision, somewhat risky decision in terms of your brand because you could have just ridden out into the sunset, the rest of your leadership life with the people who had come up with you through the years. But that was a big decision. Talk about that a little bit.

John Maxwell (06:35):
Well, it was a big decision, but I remember in that meeting when we said, let’s get Andy to kind of spearhead it for us, which was a great decision. And the other one was I said, anyone over 40 can attend. And when you talk about me not inviting those people, I was not inviting myself. I mean, I was over 40. It’s kind of like the only reason I got to show up at Catalyst is because for the first couple years, obviously I just kind of talked and basically tried to serve you to get everything set up. But yes, I say to anyone if they’re going to have a great impact upon their culture, they have to leave their generation. They really do. And of course now it’s 77, I really have to leave my generation. In other words, you really have to give up to go up. And so we were willing to say, no, let’s go for the under 40, if you’ll remember Andy, that was the big push. Remember all the people over 40 trying to sneak into catalysts,

Andy Stanley (07:28):
Right? Well, I think I was 41, so I kind of had to sneak in. I just got there because we were hosting it and you invited me to speak. But yes,

John Maxwell (07:36):
I think part of legacy is understanding that the run you’re on doesn’t have to be the run you continue. Because I think there in my life, there have been several times where I’ve had to say, okay, I have to make a trade off here if I want to go any further. And if I want to go any higher, I really have to give this up and go to unchartered territory. In fact, sometimes I think I’ve been maybe more than anything else, a pioneer. I’ve just stepped out a lot into new territory

(08:05):
For different reasons. But it was always the fact that I stepped out new territory because that territory wasn’t being taken by anybody else. And I remember Robert Schuler said to me one time, he said, John, if somebody else is doing it really well, get behind him and support him, play on their team. Do everything you can to make ’em successful. He said, you set your mark by doing something distinctive and different that’s fresh, that the people will catch their imagination. It’ll be help the people. So I think that legacy, when you think of it being long-term and lasting, which is very true, I think legacy is also very creative and willing to let go of maybe what’s familiar or comfortable and jump the fence, jump the fence and start something brand new. And I’ve done that. I tell pioneers the only thing they need to do is have a heavy coat because they’re going to take a lot of arrows. And you’re a pioneer too. You’ve done a lot of pioneering, but you have to have a heavy coat because whenever you’re doing something fresh and new, people don’t understand it, people kind of are wondering why you did it and checking out your motives, but you don’t do it for yourself. Here’s what Pioneer knows. Pioneer knows that they’re first, but they won’t be best

(09:20):
That the people coming behind me. I mean, I think of all the people that are behind me that are doing so much better than I’ve ever done and pioneers, I’m willing to go first so somebody else can climb higher. And I never expect when it’s over my legacy to say he was the greatest or the best. I just want them to say he was first. When I crossed over with my books and went on the secular side,

John Maxwell (09:46):
I

John Maxwell (09:46):
Opened up a whole new world for Christian authors that nobody had crossed over it. And I take great joy in the fact that I opened the door for somebody that’s going to be bigger, better, faster, and smarter than me. And I think that’s a part of legacy that you’re proud of the people that come behind you that really do stand on your shoulders and improve other people’s lives better than you would’ve done it yourself.

Andy Stanley (10:10):
I want to drill down on that since you introduced that topic because again, we’ll talk about younger leaders in just a minute, but everybody has some sort of legacy, even if they’re not in leadership and they aren’t thinking in terms of leadership. But the leader’s legacy to some extent, don’t you agree needs to be the leaders they’ve raised up to bring along behind them. And this is something you have been so intentional in doing and I’m certainly a product of that, but talk a little bit specifically about practical ways for current leaders, business leaders, nonprofit leaders,

(10:41):
To think in terms of to connect the dots between their legacy and the leaders they leave behind. Because we think of legacy in terms of, oh, they built a building, they built an organization. But you have built people. And I think regardless of what leaders are thinking currently in terms of their legacy, the people they build and leave behind or don’t build and leave behind will be part of their legacy. And let me go negative for just a minute, then let you respond. We both have worked around or know leaders who, because of their insecurity built organizations that they hope will always be their legacy when their names come to mind. But because of their insecurity, they were afraid to surround themselves with strong leaders. And consequently they don’t have a people legacy in terms of leaders they invested in. And what you just said about yourself, which is absolutely true, you have not ever blinked or winced or stepped back from the idea of giving other leaders opportunities.

(11:47):
So will you talk just a little bit to the leader who’s like, no, my legacy is going to be my company. My legacy is going to be an invention, whatever it might be, or my church. But that’s a missed opportunity because at the end of the day, it’s the people that we have invested in that will ultimately be the next generation of legacy. Because here’s news flash. Nobody’s going to remember my buildings or my church or my sermons. I mean, nobody’s going to remember that stuff anyway, and they’re going to take our names off stuff. So anyway, just go deep on that for a minute.

John Maxwell (12:20):
Yeah, thank you for asking me to do that, Andy, because I’m very passionate about this. It was a conversation with Jack Welch one time for lunch. We were talking about leadership, and he said something to me that was very helpful. He said, John, he said, I poured my life into General Electric, and I was known as perhaps maybe the number one CEO in the entire world. But he said, when I left it very quickly, it went down. And he says, as I look back now, he said, I put way too much time in my organization and I didn’t put near enough time in the people. And he said, don’t do that. In fact, he’s the one that gave me the phrase you’ve heard me say before, have legs for your legacy.

(13:01):
And when he said legs, he said, I’m talking about people. You want people movers. People movers with your vision, people movers with your values. And he said, it only can be done through people. In fact, that was probably the catalyst for me starting my coaching company. I mean, I was already 65 and I didn’t need another company, but I thought, no, no, this is a chance for me to again go to that next generation down, give them my name, do some training, do some equipping and have at it. And I remember when we started the coaching company, we decided to do something totally different. I said, outside of them paying a fee, a fair fee to become a coach, I don’t want any of their profits. I mean, I don’t want them percentage comes back to the, I said, I want them to be blessed.

(13:45):
I want them to prosper. I want them to do well. Let’s just give them freedom to be an entrepreneur. And we made that commitment, we made that commitment that here, that we wanted more for them than we wanted from them. And I think that’s a legacy thought too, that you really look at the people that you’re pouring into and you really do want more for them. That I want to be on the plus side. I don’t want to be on the minus side. I don’t want to constantly have people look at me and say, gosh, he didn’t perform or he didn’t. I just want to give them my best and be excellence. And I think that’s all foundational thinking for what legacy is all about. And so here’s how I see it. When you’re really a legacy leader, you become very replaceable. It doesn’t bother me to hand off it to somebody.

(14:32):
In fact, everything I get, I almost ask myself, how quickly can I give it to somebody else to run? Because as soon as I can give it to somebody else, I can go create something new and different and fresh. And so I’m always kind of wanting to work myself out of a job and hand my company is off to Mark Cole now and he’s doing a fantastic job and he’s doing it much better than I do it, and I’m still serving him, trying to help him. And okay, I had a lady come up to me recently and she said, I know why you’re successful. I said, why am I successful? She said, you’ve been very successful helping other people be very successful. When I thought about that, I thought, yeah, I think that’s kind of where I am. When I look at you, Andy, and what you have done and how I’m so proud of you not only in building a great church, but I’m proud of you because I think you have been a leader that I think you’re a pioneer. I think you’ve stepped out in territory. People didn’t want to step out in and said things that needed to be said that they were unwilling to say that would make them uncomfortable. And when I look at you, I feel a great sense of accomplishment and pride. And there were a lot of people have done more for you than I have and poured a lot more in. So I mean, I’m not like I

Andy Stanley (15:41):
Understand not in the realm of leadership, John, you are, you’re the teacher and the encourager and the coach. And anyway, just one clarification. I mean a lot of people have, we all have been invested in by multiple people, but I’m

John Maxwell (15:55):
Very grateful I get more joy really out of your success than mine. I mean, I’ve had a lot of success. I mean I’ve been incredibly blessed. But there’s something about an unselfishness of a legacy person who knows, Hey, hey, I’m dying. I’m dying. I got a very short time four score. We’re done. We’re out of here. And the other thing about legacy is so interesting. They want to be replaceable. They’re handing baton. And when I see an irreplaceable leader, I know that company organization, they’re in trouble. They’re in trouble because it is going to rise and fall on them and no one else. And I think we need to be replaceable. Now here’s what’s incredible, the moment I’m willing to give it all up and replace it and add value and pass on the baton, what happens is the legacy becomes irreplaceable.

Andy Stanley (16:41):
Yeah. So John, before we finish this fascinating conversation to all of our podcast listeners, I bet you’ve noticed the days are getting shorter, but I bet your to-do list is not. So I’ve got a suggestion. You can power through your busy days with factors, no prep, no mess meals. Their chefs do all the work to bring you fresh, never frozen, fully cooked meals right to your doorstep. And best of all, their meals are dietician approved. So you’re getting the nutrition you need along with the flavors you will crave. So go to factor meals.com/aslp 50 and then use Code aslp 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month. Whether you’re managing calories, maximizing your protein intake, or simply trying to eat more balls, factor meals will help you meet your wellness goals. And with 35 weekly meal options, you can choose from preferences like keto calorie smart gourmet plus or vegan and veggie to find the right meals that suit your lifestyle.

(17:45):
Again, head on over to factor meals.com/aslp and use code A SLP 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month. Again, that’s code ASLP 50 at factor meals.com/aslp 50 to get 50% off your first box plus 20% off your next month. And now let’s jump back into today’s episode. Here’s something you said to me years ago. I put on a sticky note on the desktop of my computer and you just mentioned it, and I want, again, tie this back to the topic of legacy. You said, whatever we clinging to diminishes, whatever we give away, multiplies, whatever we cling to diminishes whatever we give away multiplies. And you’ve done this, but going back to the Jack Welch talk specifically to the leader who is in that building phase. They’re building either their career, they don’t mind moving from company to company or they’re actually building a company and they’re so focused on the thing they’re building that they would say to you or to me, okay, this whole leadership legacy thing, that’s fine for someday one day, but I’m trying to build a company.

(18:57):
Now there’s that tension and it’s easy to get to 65, 66 and realize you built something, but you didn’t build a lot of some ones. In fact, we have common friends, some deceased, some still active who spent so much time on the thing. Unfortunately when the thing went bad, that’s their legacy because we will, this is terrible news. We will be remembered more for our final moments than our finest moments. And they had those finest moments professionally, but relationally at the end when those names come to mind, unfortunately those are the things we think about. So talk to the busy leader who’s like, I don’t have time to think about legacy as it relates to leaders coming along behind me. What do you say to them?

John Maxwell (19:45):
Oh my gosh, it’s such a great question. It’s kind of like the guy who climbed the ladder and got to the top of the ladder and found out it was leaning against the wrong building. You know what I mean? And that’s what you’re talking about right now. What I tell people, what I tell people is very simple. I understand the need to go build something. There’s nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, there’s some credibility you have. I mean, you build a great church. That’s a leadership credibility. I mean, let’s put it this way, would anybody want to follow you if you hadn’t done something wonderful? I mean, it’s kind of like that’s the attraction. What they fail to miss is the fact that it is in people, that the life change happens. It is not in the organization. It is kind of like who mentors you is as important as what they say.

(20:33):
And you and I have had a lot of wonderful mentors that have helped us greatly. And when I look back at these great mentors, they gave me some wonderful wisdom on how to do well in leadership, but it was who they were. It was their spirit that was contagious. I carry their spirit. I took my 10th most influential people in my life one day, and I wrote it down and I spent a whole day thinking about those people. Eight of ’em have passed away, and when I think about ’em, who I am because they entered my life is more because of who they were than even what they said. And so I think it’s very important for us to understand the spirit of legacy is not carried by buildings and concrete and names and that type of recognition, the spirit of legacy is carried. Those legs that carry is within it. It’s Elijah telling Elijah, can I just be with you when you leave? I just got to have a little of that stuff on me.

(21:30):
And I think that that is very important. So therefore, because I know that I believe in the power proximity, and I think it’s very important for me if I’m going to have a legacy to be close to people that I’m trying to pour into so that they can catch the person as much as they can learn from the person. And when I watch them catch that spirit, it’s life changing. And you’ve done the very same thing, Andy, I want to leave more within you that I want to leave for you. What I leave for you is kind of wood hay and St Stubbly a little bit. And it’s kind of like your children. Do you want to give them a gift that they’ll break by January the first at Christmas? Or do you want to give ’em an experience? You want to go take a trip with your children or do something that is going to include you, that’s got that life change? Does that make sense what I’m talking about?

Andy Stanley (22:23):
Yeah, absolutely. And our mutual friend, Tim Elmore says it this way. He says, more time with fewer people results in greater impact, more time with fewer people. And this is the tension for the busy leader. It’s okay. Then there’s the whole thing. If I need to be fair and give everybody the same amount of time, that’s completely wrong. There’s that handful of people that is worth more of our time. So here’s what I want to do to kind of bring this into practical. You basically said three practical steps every leader can take right now to start building their legacy. And number one is develop other leaders, which we’ve talked about. And then you just touched on the second one. The second one is lead with integrity and character. Character. So talk a little bit about integrity and character and legacy, because everybody listening already knows this. When you think about the people that we have looked up to in the past or continue to look up to, whether or not we continue to look up to them has a whole lot more to do oftentimes with their character and integrity than what they accomplished. And to your point, what they accomplish or what they’re accomplishing gets our attention. But what keeps our attention and keeps them running around in the back of our minds when we’re trying to make decisions is the issue of character and integrity. Talk a little bit about that.

John Maxwell (23:39):
Yeah, Andy. Well, you and I have had this private conversation before for the last few years. I’ve just been leadership sad. I think everybody deserves to be led well. And when character is missing in a leader’s life, they won’t be led well, they’ll be manipulated. Manipulation is always wrong. There’s never one time that manipulation is wrong because when I manipulate somebody, I move them for personal gain and advantage. And you and I know that’s exactly opposite of what Jesus taught about leadership.

(24:09):
The first shall be last. And if you want to rule, you got to, I mean, he just said, this isn’t the way leadership works. And I think that we’ve lost our way in this area of leadership, and I think it’s important to be bigger on the inside than the outside. In fact, I think if you’re bigger on the inside, the outside takes care of itself. But I think when you’re bigger on the outside and your reputation’s bigger than your character, who people think you are versus who you really are, I think it’s only a matter of time until the outside crashes. And as you know, I just wrote a book called High Road Leadership. It’s about 12 pictures of what a high road leader looks like, and we can choose to live on the high road, but most leaders, they either live middle road, which is transactional or low road, which is manipulative. And both of those roads are roads that leaders shouldn’t be on. So if you don’t mind, I’m just going to give you a few pictures real

Andy Stanley (25:02):
Quick. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

John Maxwell (25:02):
No, this is great. Yeah, these are so transferable. This is

Andy Stanley (25:06):
Great.

John Maxwell (25:06):
Go ahead. Yeah, they’re just pictures. People do what people see, but high road leaders bring people together. They’re not divisive. They bring people together. Now, we all have differences. There’s nothing wrong with differences, Margaret, I’ve been married 55 years. We still have differences, but there’s a difference between a difference and a division. A division’s a choice. And when I divide, I consciously divide people from my advantage. Now I’m manipulative. So they bring people together. Another one is a big one is they value all people. They value all people, not some people or not a few people, or not the people that are like us. We’re just like Jesus, we value all people. And hi leaders acknowledge their humanness. I mean, they just do. They just say, I didn’t do that. Right. I wish I could have that over. They’re very at ease with their humanists.

(25:57):
And then they also do the right things for the right reasons. So their motives are right and they give more than they take, and they place other people for their agenda. And I can go on that, but that’s kind of what high road leadership is all about. It is just a choice. It’s a choice we have to make in our life. And I remember when Enron happened back in 2000, and I was writing for Time Warner, and they wanted me to write a book on business ethics because what companies were putting on the wall, they weren’t walking the wall and the walk were together.

Andy Stanley (26:31):
I remember you telling me about this opportunity to write that book, and I remember what you said, keep going, because this was, I can quote you from that conversation before you wrote the book. Go ahead

John Maxwell (26:41):
Though. This is so good. So we had a dinner in new and they said, we want you to write the book on business ethics. And I said, well, I can’t write that book. And they’re, what do you mean look at these business? I said, no, no, there’s just ethics. There’s just ethics. Now if you have ethics, wow, it works in business. Oh, happy day, hot dog, let’s go. But they were compartmentalizing ethics.

John Maxwell (27:03):
Well, ethics is a way of life. It is not a place that you put it that works for you, and if it doesn’t work for you, you don’t do it. But that was life changing for me because I’ll tell you what, up to that time, we were teaching leadership skills, but we weren’t teaching leadership values.

(27:19):
And that was a turn for me. All of a sudden I thought, I’m missing something here. We’re doing training in leadership, but we’re not working with a heart. We’re working with a head. And so the skills are good. In fact, everything rises and falls on leadership and the way they rise, good leadership skills and good values, and you can’t substitute one for the other one. So that was really helpful to me. And for young leaders, one of the things I would say to them is, first of all, you can pick your legacy. Now. You don’t have to wait until you’re old. That’s so important. Say that again. Yes. I felt my calling in my twenties was the rest of life was leadership. I felt that was my road. And so one of the decisions I made was the fact that I wouldn’t go speak to large crowds. I would go speak to leadership crowds, and I would rather speak to a hundred leaders than I would a thousand followers. And that’s where I got the statement. We add value to leaders who multiply value to others. Because once you work with leaders, the multiplication and compounding goes from there.

(28:22):
It becomes quite exceptional. But that was a choice. I want to go speak to leaders. I made that choice because I wanted that to be what my legacy was. I remember the publisher when I said, I want to write leadership books, they discouraged me. They said, only 8% of the people are going to buy leadership books. If you really want to sell books, you got to go more general. And I looked at ’em and I said, I want to change lives, not sell books. Hey, give me the 8% and that’ll take care of the other 92%. But those are choices again that I made in my twenties, in my thirties, that now are compounding. And one of the things I think, Andy, we want to make sure our young leaders know, is that consistency really compounds at 77. I see it so clearly at 27 I didn’t.

(29:09):
But at 77, I just see that because I stayed on a leadership path and I tried to learn and grow in that leadership path, I wasn’t as bad as people thought I was in the beginning. Now I’m not as good as people think I am because it’s compounding on us. You see what I’m saying? Yeah. If you make your decisions early, good ones and get that path, there’s a compounding that will happen in your life that is not explainable. You’ll look at the end of it and you’ll just say, God was very good to me, better than I deserved, and I can’t even imagine where I am today. I tell people, if you’re going to quit something, quit the first week. Good Lord, nobody misses you. You didn’t do anything. Go find out what you need. But once you find out what your real central calling is, I think that’s when you really, now you add lanes to that calling all the time. That’s the other mess. I think sometimes they just stay right there and they don’t get creative and add another lane. And I say, have a 10 lane highway of leadership. Keep adding lanes, but stay in the area where you’re called and think constantly of consistency compounding.

Andy Stanley (30:13):
So I want to get to this third one because this is so helpful and practical. So in terms of leadership, legacy, you got to develop other leaders. You’re going to be remembered not what you leave behind oftentimes, but who comes along behind you. You got to lead with integrity and character because as I said, our final moments as it relates to our character and integrity, that’s ultimately, unfortunately or fortunately, what defines us. And then third, and you are such a great example of this, John, you said, in order to have a leadership legacy, you have to keep growing personally that you can’t build a lasting legacy. If you stop growing leaders who stop learning, stop leading. And one of the greatest things you can do to build your legacy is to commit to personal growth. I mean, you’re 77 and you continue to do this.

(30:58):
And for those of us who know you and are coming along behind you, that is part of your legacy that you didn’t get stuck in a lane. And the other thing, John, if I can brag on you, you have not allowed your season of life to be a lid to you. And you’ve talked a lot in the past about leadership lids. That’s where we learned that phraseology. But even at 77, you’ve not said, I’ve done what I need to do. I’ve done all I need to do. You continue to grow and lead. And that is so inspiring to me at 66 because you get to a season where you think, well, I’ve kind of done my thing, and what else is there to do? And you’re like not having it, not having it. You got to keep growing personally. Totally. So talk about personal growth and legacy for a couple of minutes.

John Maxwell (31:44):
I’m very passionate about, in fact, people know me for leadership, but I’m more passionate about personal growth because your personal growth will determine whatever area you select to excel in. Your personal growth is going to determine how far you can go. And in fact, I’ve got books to write yet, in fact, I have 13 more books I want to write. I’ve got a whole that’s amazing list of that makes me tired. Well, remember my secret though? I’ve told you, high energy, low iq, low iq, I have the perfect storm. Most people don’t have that perfect storm in their life, but one of the books I want to write is going to be entitled, is there a Finish Line? And I want to write it because I think 99% of the people have a finish line in their life. I get a certain age, I make so much money, I move to that place.

(32:31):
And I’m not even criticizing finish lines, I’m not criticizing it. But I think that there’s a big miss there because I think if put a finish line out in front of me, a self-imposed finish line, when I cross it, I’m finished. And I keep asking people, what part of that don’t you understand? I mean, you still are living, but you’ve crossed that finish line. And the only reason I’m finished is because I said I was going to be finished. And for me, there’s no finish line. What I mean by that is I want to keep stretching. I want to keep learning. I want to keep growing because that’s where life is as well as I do. When people get old, they don’t get old because of age. They get old because they stopped. They stopped being curious, they stopped being hungry, they stopped doing new things. And I watched that, and I’ve seen that in people’s lives. And I’ve said to myself, I don’t want that. I would love to die running still just running, just running and stretching. And it doesn’t bother me that I didn’t reach the finish line because the question that if you keep stretching, you keep asking the question, how far can I go?

(33:38):
Well, if you have a finish line, you know how far you can go. You can go to the finish line, and I don’t know how far I can go. And there’s something that keeps me hungry and just loving what I do and in incredibly encouraged in doing it. I think that’s very important. Okay, last thought. When you can afford to quit, you can’t afford to quit. Oh gosh. Because that’s Andy. That’s when you’re really good. It is kind of like, again, why would I quit now? I mean, everything’s compounding. Everything’s compounding because of years. Years. It’s all, again, if I was going to quit on leadership, I should have quit the first week. I didn’t have anything accomplished. But I find so many times we get to this, what I would call this incredible harvest time of our life, and all of a sudden we stop and then the harvest stops. And here’s what I tell people. When you quit, when you’re getting right there to that harvest time in your life, you never know what you lost because you weren’t around to count the cost.

Andy Stanley (34:40):
Oh gosh.

John Maxwell (34:41):
You just don’t know. You don’t even know what you lost. But here’s what I know. You lost more when you quit, when you’re at that productive time than you lost any other time in your life, you’re quitting at the time where the greatest return is there. You’ve

Andy Stanley (34:54):
Got all your crystallized intelligence that you could leverage, but then we think, oh, I don’t have a job, or I don’t have, nobody’s looking for me to show up. Totally. So this may be an unfair question, but you may have a succinct answer. What do you hope your legacy is, John? And then I’ll tell you what I think it’s going to be. But you go first. I mean, tell you what I’m asking, because I think regardless of the age of the listener, to have some idea, whether it’s a sentence and maybe it changes in five or 10 years, but to have something out there that we’re living for, that we hope lives after us is so instructive and it puts a parameter around our morality, our ethics, our relationships, and everything else. It’s that funeral exercise that Stephen Covey talked about. But when you think about your legacy, and you’ve kind of said it, what do you hope for?

John Maxwell (35:46):
Well, when I teach, I’m always looking for four things. When I teach, I teach for possibilities. I’m a live lifter. When people hear me teach, I want them to see things that are possible that they haven’t ever seen before. So what do I want them to see? I want ’em to see their possibilities. What do I want them to know? I want them to know that I value them. I want ’em to know that I value them because people rise to the level, not of belief in them, but how they self-worth and value.

John Maxwell (36:13):
What I want him to feel is empowered when I’m done. I want ’em to feel like I can go do that. This is possible for me. It’s not like it was possible for John and I, me and then I want them obviously to apply and multiply, which is a leadership thing. If they’re a follower, if can apply. If they’re a leader, they can apply and multiply. And what I really want people to do is I want people when they think of me to just say, I’m a better person. Because John Maxwell was in my life. I told them, if I really have anything on my tombstone, I just kind of want to put, my name is John and I’m your friend. It is not complicated. My life, my life’s never been complicated. I don’t want fans, Andy. I want friends. And to have friends, you’ve got to close the gap. You don’t widen the gap. You walk slowly through the crowd. You truly care for people. You truly love what you do, and you love the people that you do it with.

(37:06):
So if people when they look at me can say, he equipped me. You know what? A lot of people have made me successful. When I look at mentoring, when the lady says, you’re very successful making everybody else very successful, I wanted to say to her, well, I’m very successful. I had a whole bunch of people behind me that poured into me, left legacy and mentored me that wanted me to be very successful. And I think I’m better because they came into my life. Well, I want the people that I came into life to say he gave more than he took, and I’m a better person.

Andy Stanley (37:33):
And that is exactly what I think your legacy is going to be, John. It’s not going to be Quip, even though it’s amazing. It’s not going to be the books. It’s going to be you made people better. And as you said, years and years ago, you summarize your definition of success. Basically, these are my words. You can say it better than me. That the closer a person gets to you, the more they would respect you or love you instead

Andy Stanley (37:57):
Don’t get too closer. It’ll go the other way like it does for so many people. And that has been absolutely the case. Well, this was inspiring, especially that statement, when you can afford to quit, you can’t afford to quit. That is a really big deal because there are a lot of leaders listening, and they can’t wait to get to the point to where they can afford to quit. And I hope if they’re 30 years old or 40 years old, or 50 years old, I hope they will remember when you can afford to quit, that’s when you can’t afford to quit. Because that is perhaps when you have the most to offer. And John, keep on ongoing because you still have so much to offer. You got to write 13 more books. Can’t wait to read ’em. That’s amazing. So to all of our podcasts listeners, this has been an extraordinary conversation.

(38:40):
At least it has been for me. I think it has been for you. And before we leave, we just have one ask, and that is to subscribe to the podcast by hitting follow on whatever app you listen to. You help us grow this audience, which of course allows us to keep improving and making it better, bringing you great guests like the one we had today to help you go further faster. Also, be sure to visit the Andy stanley.com website. That’s andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that we wrote that summarizes this discussion so that you can have this discussion with the people you work with or maybe the people at home. And we have some questions there to help that discussion go even better. And join us next week for Reverb the Reverb episode where Susie and I will talk about John instead of talking to John about the topic of legacy. That’s always a lot of fun. Again, right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.

 

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