By Allen Haynes • March 3, 2025 Listen to the podcast. Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy. And before we jump into today’s content, I wanted to tell you about a special offer from our friends at belay. As you know, the constant demands of leadership on our time and our energy can be overwhelming. And so obviously it’s important to establish systems to ease that pressure, and that’s where belay comes in. BELAY is here to help you reclaim your time in powerful ways. Belays, virtual assistants, accounting professionals and marketing assistants are US-based, vetted and match to your unique needs so you can focus on the work that you love to help you get started. BELAY is providing a free download of their ebook, 10 Tactics to Boost Productivity for when there just aren’t enough hours in the day, which is most days, right? This resource will provide you with practical productivity strategies and helpful insights, and to how virtual professionals can help you make your workday more efficient. (00:58): That way you get results and peace of mind at the same time. So don’t miss out. Get your free download of 10 Tactics to boost Productivity today. To clean this off or just text the word Andy, a NDY, to 5, 5, 1, 2, 3. That’s a and DY to five, five. 1, 2, 3. And now let’s jump into today’s content. Today we are talking about attention. Every leader at every level deals with or as we say around here, attention. Every leader has the opportunity to manage namely difficult people. And joining me to unpack this topic as always is my co-host, Suzy Gray. Suzy, do you know any difficult people present company, not included? Suzy Gray (01:39): Since this is not the Suzy Gray Leadership Podcast. I’ll defer to you on that one, but it’s certainly an important topic because some people are more difficult to lead than others. Andy Stanley (01:48): Yes, if you sit in the leadership seat long enough, you’ll find yourself leading people who are challenging to lead. And part of the reason is leaders are often challenging to lead because they are leaders. And to be clear, we’re not talking about people with character or ethical issues that conflict with the values of your organization. That’s a completely different conversation. By difficult, we’re talking about, you see them coming or you see them on your calendar and your initial internal responses again or already, you’re just not looking forward to the interaction. They may be contrarians, they may just be awkward. They may always want something, they may always leave you with something to do homework. You’re thinking, I’m the boss. Why do I have homework? Maybe they’re just uncomfortable, naturally negative, or they’re just a bit prickly in their interpersonal interactions. So that’s the group we’re talking about. And if you have an organization of any size, you have those folks, or eventually you will have them. And in some cases, they’re some of your best leaders. They’re some of your most productive workers. So you don’t want ’em to leave, but you don’t want to have to talk to them. Is that too extreme? Su, Suzy Gray (02:58): That’s not too, it’s absolutely true. Andy Stanley (03:01): No, really. Suzy Gray (03:02): No, it’s absolutely true. And that’s why today we’re diving in into how leaders can actually handle these prickly situations. And Andy, you’ve worked with a lot of leaders. What have you seen when it comes to how other leaders handle difficult people? Andy Stanley (03:15): Well, I think we’ve all seen other leaders handle this poorly. And because at some point along the way, the leaders listening weren’t the leaders. We all started somewhere in an organization or have been in multiple organizations and we’ve been mistreated. We were the prickly people. Perhaps we were the person they didn’t want to talk to because they were too busy or we just weren’t very good in terms of how we approached our leaders and the leadership in our organization. So I think we’ve all seen this done poorly, but I want to hang right there just a second to level the playing field a bit to all of our podcast listeners and subscribers. Chances are, again, there’s somebody listening to this episode perhaps, and unfortunately you came to mind and they’re hoping we’re going to say something that will help them with you because we don’t know when we’re that person, right? (04:06): Because we think we’re normal, we’re the center. If everyone was more like us, the world would be a better place, would be a better place than that. You can finish that statement. So that’s the first big thing to acknowledge. We can all be difficult to lead and we can all be difficult to follow. We all have the potential to be as mean or as insensitive, aloof, passive, aggressive, negative as anybody else. But today’s not a therapy session. So we’re not going to try to fix the audience. We’re going to focus on how to respond to and to lead difficult people because they probably aren’t going to change and neither are we. And that’s the first thing to remember. Our goal in leadership is not to change people, to help people become the best they can be. And whether they change or not, that’s not between us and them. (04:48): Again, these are tensions to manage and these aren’t bad people. These are just sometimes a variety of things. Now, the reason this is important to talk about, and I know you have some questions, Suzy, but the reason that I think this is so important is if you don’t have a plan, and if I don’t have a plan, and if we’re not prepared, and honestly as we’re going to see, if we’re not somewhat proactive, here’s what happens. And we’ve all experienced this difficult. People ultimately gain a measure of control over us. They get in our heads and they stay there, and we rehearse those conversations and we have imaginary conversations and we think, why am I even thinking about this person while I drive home? Whatever it might be. And before we know it, if we’re not careful, we begin to kind of mirror their behavior back to them. We start acting like they do. And in the moment it kind of feels like we have no choice. And if we were to explain the dynamic to somebody else, they may even say to us, well, you had no choice. I mean, who could? It was the only Suzy Gray (05:49): Way out. Andy Stanley (05:49): That was the only way out. (05:51): And the reason we feel like we don’t have a choice is this difficult people. And we don’t think in these terms when we’re in the relationship or when we’re having a conversation, but difficult, people keep us off balance. They just keep us off balance. So we’re reacting and responding, trying to regain our balance because whatever it is about them, they’ve just kind of thrown us off our game. Which again, if you push me to the left, I’m going to react by coming to the right and the next thing I know, I feel like I’m out of control. So the first thing we need to know or maybe just be reminded of, is that we need to resist matching or reflecting their behavior or attitude back at them. And again, when we’re frustrated or just irritated our words or our attitude, it feels like we’re reflecting it back, not just back to them, back at them. Suzy Gray (06:40): Absolutely. Andy Stanley (06:40): Yeah. I think we’ve all felt that, Suzy Gray (06:42): And leaders don’t win, like you said, by matching behavior. So let’s unpack that a little bit. Andy Stanley (06:47): Well, when a leader reacts emotionally or retaliates against a difficult person, they’re really letting that person set the tone for their leadership because nobody gets up in the morning and says, I’m going to go to work and retaliate, or I’m going to go to work today and mistreat someone. Suzy Gray (07:01): I want to reflect the most difficult person in the organization. Andy Stanley (07:04): So if I find myself mistreating or over-communicating to somebody clearly that person, I’ve given that person some control over how I’m leading them or how I’m leading, which means we sort of abdicated leadership. We’re not leading, we’re actually following their lead. Suzy Gray (07:19): And that makes a lot of sense because that is the way that we end up responding. But it’s easier just said than done to not respond in kind. So what’s the alternative? If we can’t control these difficult people, how do we manage them without losing our leadership edge or our seat on the bus abdicating our role as the leader? Andy Stanley (07:41): Well, it’s so interesting. I know you’re going to ask that. And I thought about years ago, if you’d asked me that question, I would have one answer. But as the years have passed, I feel like I’ve gained some wisdom in this, but you tell me, you Suzy Gray (07:54): Should give us both Andy Stanley (07:57): The old answer. I think the key is this. It’s managing our internal and external response. And internally and internally, here’s how this works for me. I have to decide, and I think this is applicable to everybody, but just speaking from personal experience, I have to decide the goal is not to win something. It’s not to, I call these the three Cs. The goal is not to convince them of something, convict them of something, or control this person. I’m not here to convince, I’m not here to convict, I’m not here to control. I’m here, and I’ve been placed in their life for a season of time to help them succeed. So the win is that they succeed. And as the leader, I have the tools and I have the influence to help this person succeed here and everywhere. And not to get too sappy, but the question that I retreat to is what does love require of me? And of course, you’d expect a pastor to say that, (08:57): But this is true. In other words, as I’m feeling what I’m feeling and I’m frustrated, or here they come or they’ve got the same whatever it might be, I just have to stop again. This is the internal conversation. Okay, Andy, your goal is for this person to win, to win here, to win in life. So if that’s the case, what does love, if I could use that term or what does genuine concern for this person, what does that require of me? Because if I’m not careful, I go to this conversation requiring something of them, I want them to stop being that way or talking that way or asking me or whatever it is. I want them to stop it. I can’t control that, and that’s not my responsibility. Suzy Gray (09:35): And probably coming down on them for it isn’t going to help the Andy Stanley (09:37): Situation anyway. No, and it gets telegraphed. And because we hire smart people, they sense that we all do. It gets telegraphed. So what does this require of me? Not what am I requiring of them Again? And it’s a question we’ve talked about before, Hey, what story do I want to tell? What story do I want them to tell when they walk out of my office or I walk out of theirs or when this meeting is over? And ultimately, when we part ways professionally, what’s the best story? I told ’em, I shamed them. I intimidated them. Of course not. Those are selfish stories. And the moral of that story is I abdicated my responsibility as a leader. I let them control the relationship. I didn’t make them better. Perhaps I made them bitter just to be cute. All of that to say, when we see that person or those people, and when we see them on our calendar, we have some prep to do internally. And if we don’t do that, it’s not a happy ending. We are happy because we’re the leaders, but in terms of the relationship and in terms of maximizing their potential and even selfishly maximizing their potential in our organization, we miss the opportunity to do that. So the goal is to move into the conversation with the end in mind. And honestly, it’s just immature and insecure to do anything less. Suzy Gray (10:53): And you just said it makes the organization better. I don’t think that’s selfish. I think the goal is that is the ultimate win-win. The individual becomes better and therefore the organization becomes better and all ships are lifted. So I think that that’s super important. So when we’re faced with someone who’s undermining us or acting difficult, we need to ask what story do I want my team to tell? And what story do I want to tell about how I handle this? And ultimately, what do I story do I want them to tell about this interaction? And that’s a really great lens and puts us back in the driver’s seat of our narratives. I want to kind of push into that idea. I’ve heard you say before that you need to learn to release people who hurt you. Can you explain what you mean by that idea? Andy Stanley (11:39): And that phrase has been used within the context of interpersonal relationships or even family relationships. But it definitely has relevance at work. And it doesn’t mean when we say release, we don’t mean we’re letting them go like, ah, I’m going to solve this. Suzy Gray (11:53): We’re going to free your future. Andy Stanley (11:54): Yeah, we’re going to free your future. No, it’s not that. Because again, as I said up front, oftentimes these are amazing people in terms of they’re just extremely productive, super talented, super confident, and we all, at some season of our life get in our own way. It’s not that we’re incompetent. We are still learning and figuring things out. Anyway, what I mean by releasing people, it means I’m responsible for releasing whatever I’m holding against them. Even small things, stuff you’ve heard they say or a lack of enthusiasm in your meeting, or you felt a lack of support or they weren’t paying attention, you were looking for rah rah, and they were looking down, typing, and you’re like, are even paying attention. You know what I mean? Those little things that just get on our nerves and these are habits, and it’s like there he goes again, or there she goes again, holding onto that stuff, which we’re all inclined to do. (12:46): It’s not helpful. So I’ve just got to have to release those little things again, we’ve talked about this before, it’s believe the best. Just fill that gap with trust rather than suspicion. Because the thing is you can’t lead well, or to go back to my other words, you can’t love, well, if you’re holding onto stuff and it gets telegraphed, as I said, and going back to what we just discussed, hanging onto stuff gives them this kind of unhealthy power over us because if I’m reacting, I’m not leading. If I’m reacting, I’m trying to regain my balance. And so you just can’t lead that way holding onto this stuff, refusing to release it, it’s distracting. It’s like there’s an invisible third person in the relationship. So we have to release those people from the things we are holding over them or we are holding against them. (13:31): And as leaders, it’s incumbent upon us to do that and not expect them to do that. In other words, we have to take responsibility for the relationship because not only does the buck stop here in terms of the productivity of the organization, it also stops here in terms of the health of the organization culturally and relationally. And it goes back to the golden rule. What would I want that person to do if the roles were reversed? I would want them to release me from the one-off statement that time I was late, the little stuff that Suzy Gray (14:03): The dad was tired, Andy Stanley (14:04): And we put it in a bucket and save it up. And we’ll get to that in just a minute. Suzy Gray (14:08): But in this context though, releasing someone doesn’t mean you’re excusing them, right? Andy Stanley (14:12): No, not at all. Releasing someone simply means choosing not to hold them hostage, in my mind, right? Which actually makes holding them accountable to organizational standards easier. And I say easier because to borrow from something Jesus said, once I take the log out of my own eye, I can see clearly that’s this amazing parallel. I can see clearly, or as he said, I can see more clearly how to address the spec and their eye. But if I go into the conversation with the log in my eye, all the stuff I’ve gathered and collected that I’m still holding on them, holding Suzy Gray (14:45): Onto, yeah, Andy Stanley (14:46): Then we’ve all made that mistake. We store stuff up towards somebody, and then when they do something that has to be addressed, what do we do? We dump the whole Suzy Gray (14:54): Trap, overreact, Andy Stanley (14:55): We overreact, we bring the whole bucket, all that stuff we’ve stored up because we didn’t release it. All the pent up frustration and the appropriate frustration. And then we over communicate, as you said, and we come across more angry than concerned, and then we do more damage than good. And that’s on us. Because the proper thing to communicate in those moments is concern, not anger. But if I haven’t released the little things, they’re not going to feel like I’m concerned. They’re going to feel like I’m angry. Suzy Gray (15:23): Yeah, that’s so important. But how exactly should we handle difficult people without losing our leadership edge? Can you walk us through that specifically? Andy Stanley (15:31): Well, I think I’ve already mentioned the first thing, and that is we have to do a mental or emotional inventory personally, make sure that we’re not carrying something into the conversation that really doesn’t belong there. A lot of things, this process begins in the mirror. Most great leadership begins in the mirror, right? Suzy Gray (15:48): So instead of reacting impulsively, we step back and we choose our response deliberately. Andy Stanley (15:54): And in most cases, we have time to prepare for these interactions. I mean, this is going to be a meeting, this is an appointment. There’s going to be eight people there, and he and she or they’re going to be there. So just preparing ourselves, that’s part of the preparation. And then second thing is to remind ourselves of the win. And organizationally, and again, we touched on this organizationally, the win is for this individual to thrive. The win is for them to enjoy their work, enjoy who they work with, and enjoy who they work for. And for that to happen, they have to believe that I’m for them and believe in them. So regardless of whether or not they’re my favorite person, my favorite type of person, regardless of what they’ve done or haven’t done in the past, I’m for them. And that’s what I’m responsible for communicating. Because ultimately when I get my act together and I do my mental inventory, I really am for them for sure. I mean, this isn’t a game. I’m not being dishonest. I want to be the person that they need me to be. And so while I work on me, I can encourage them. I can do two things at one time. So both of those things are important. And again, that’s that internal preparation Suzy Gray (17:00): For sure. And the third, Andy Stanley (17:02): Well, within the context of a professional relationship, and I want to underscore this within the context of a professional relationship. In other words, don’t necessarily try this at home, is what I’m saying, right? Okay. Within the context of a professional relationship, it’s three things. Be honest, be direct, and be kind. (17:21): Be honest, be direct. Be direct is easy for me. Sometimes I’m too direct. Being direct is not easy for everyone. And if you’re listening today as part of the audience, you kind of know if you have a hard time being direct. We don’t want to hurt people’s feelings. But again, being direct is not hurting people’s feelings. It’s being clear and of course, clear as kind. Yeah, absolutely. I said those in that specific order on purpose. Be honest, be direct, be kind. And here’s why I put kindness last, because my personal definition for kindness is loaning someone your strength. Rather than reminding them of their weakness, it’s loaning someone your strength rather than reminding them of their weakness. And in a confrontational conversation or in a conversation, we know where there’s challenge and there’s tension. As the leader, it’s easy for me to accidentally remind someone of how I think they’re weak or where I think a weakness is, even if I don’t mean to do that. So I’ve got to be intentional about loaning that person my strength rather than reminding them of their weakness, which means the end of the conversation goes like this, what can I do to help? (18:36): What can I do to help? I’ve been honest. I’ve been direct now that all that’s out there, I’m going to circle back around and I’m going to loan you my strength. What can I do to help with my resources and my position now that we know what we’ve got to do and how we need to move forward, what can I do to help? So be honest, be direct. Don’t circle the runway, don’t bury the lead. Be direct, and then be kind. Hey, in light of all that, now what can I do to help? Suzy Gray (19:01): Gosh, that’s so practical and powerful. But I also think it’s a really great reminder. Don’t become a difficult person yourself in response to a difficult Andy Stanley (19:10): Person. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The more difficult the person is, the more likely I am to become their difficult person. And when we match behavior, that’s what happened. The crass way of saying this is, don’t be like someone you don’t like. Don’t be like someone you don’t like. And sometimes that takes a bit of intentionality again, otherwise we just mirror the thing in them that we don’t like. And what’s so interesting, Suzy, I feel so immature even saying this, oftentimes the thing that I don’t like or that gets on my nerves, it’s a hundred percent a me thing. It’s not them. And I think for those of you in our podcast audience, you kind of know the types of people that get on your nerves or the types of people you just don’t enjoy. And you’re smart enough to know that’s just the type of person they are. And you are the type of person that get on some people’s nerves. It just, Suzy Gray (20:02): I definitely am. Andy Stanley (20:05): That’s for sure. Well, I thought we would cover that in the reverb episode. Oh, that’s, we’re going to talk about you sus Suzy Gray (20:09): The therapy session next. Okay. The therapy Andy Stanley (20:10): Session. Great. But anyway, so again, we all know that we just need a reminder sometimes going into these difficult conversations with difficult people. Suzy Gray (20:18): Definitely leaders do not win by matching behaviors. They win by managing their response. Andy Stanley (20:24): Oh, that’s good. Yeah. Suzy Gray (20:25): Andy, this has been an awesome conversation. I know it’s going to help so many leaders out there. And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in. And before we leave, we have one ask, and that is to subscribe. Andy Stanley (20:37): Yes, if you subscribe, you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep improving and bringing you great guests and great content to help you as a leader go further. So take a minute to subscribe. Suzy Gray (20:48): Yeah, exactly. And also be sure to visit the Andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary of this episode, plus questions for reflection or group discussion. And join us next week for our reverb episode where Andy and I will dig even deeper on how to handle difficult people. Right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. Comments are closed.