By Allen Haynes • February 17, 2025 Listen to the podcast. Andy Stanley (00:03): Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, where we help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy Stanley, and on this episode we are talking about decision-making. More specifically, we are talking about decision-making by the numbers, the Enneagram numbers. And if you are not familiar with the Enneagram, well, you certainly will be by the time we wrap up this episode because in the studio with me today is my friend Ian Cron. Welcome back, Ian. Ian Cron (00:28): It’s great to be here, Andy. Thanks. Andy Stanley (00:29): Yeah, well, thanks for coming back. This is our second rodeo together, talking about leadership, but a little bit different filter. Ian, as some of you know, is a bestselling author, an Enneagram teacher and podcast host. He is a psychotherapist, get this songwriter and an Episcopal priest, and I’m pretty sure he makes his own close. Anyway, most recently, Ian authored a book entitled The Road Back to You Subtitled, an Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery, which by the way, I have read this book twice and it has become a go-to resource for me as a staff management tool, even though it’s not written. With that in mind, as you’re going to discover, there is so much to the Enneagram when it comes to leadership and staff management. So as we’re about to discover, there’s actually a corollary to how we make decisions, how well we make decisions, and how we are wired. And that brings us to the significance of the Enneagram as it relates to decision making. So talk just a little bit about wiring and decision making, and then we’ll introduce folks to the Enneagram. Ian Cron (01:31): Yeah, so you’re absolutely right. I think our inborn temperament and our personality greatly influence our decision-making styles and they influence how we respond when others make decisions that affect us as well. Andy Stanley (01:46): Yeah, we’re going to talk about that. Well, before we do a deep dive into the Enneagram, would you real quickly, you did this last time you were with us and it was so helpful even for those of us who are somewhat familiar with the Enneagram. Just give us a quick overview of the Enneagram, a little something on each type, and then we will talk about decision making by the numbers. Ian Cron (02:05): Okay, well, let’s have at it. This is a 50,000 foot, 200 mile an hour rundown of nine types. So the Enneagram is an ancient personality typing system that teaches that there are nine basic personality types in the world, one of which we gravitate toward in adopt in childhood, as a way to feel safe and cope in this new world of relationships. Very importantly, each of those types has a unconscious motivation that powerfully influences how that type acts thinks and feels on a moment to moment basis. So let’s run through the nine types. So type ones are called the Improvers. Now you’ll be glad to know I changed that from the perfectionists to the improvers. Andy Stanley (02:51): Well, I really appreciate it because you told me I’m a number one and I have been sort of wound up around this perfectionism and now I’m an improver. That’s much better. That’s right. And I can’t wait to tell Sandra because as you know, my wife is also a number one, which I always tell her she’s number one, and so I’ll get to go home and tell her she’s an improver. Ian Cron (03:10): Yes. Well, if I had a nickel for every one that thanked me for changing it from perfectionist to improver, I would be Jeff Bezos. Anyway, type ones the Improvers, they are ethical, meticulous, detail oriented, and morally heroic, and they’re motivated by a need to perfect themselves. Others and the world type twos are called the helpers, warm, caring, giving. They are motivated by a need to be needed and to avoid acknowledging their own personal needs. Type threes are called the performers. They are success oriented, image conscious, wired for productivity, and they’re motivated by a need to succeed, to appear successful, and to avoid failure at all costs. Fours, we call the unicorns of the Enneagram. We think there are fewer of them represented in the population than any other type. They’re called the romantics. They’re creative, they’re sensitive, they’re moody, they’re motivated by a need to be special and unique. Andy Stanley (04:16): And do you know any fours? Ian Cron (04:19): Jesus? Andy Stanley (04:19): Yeah, the perfect answer because Ian is a four, isn’t that right? Aren’t you a four? Ian Cron (04:25): A four? Andy Stanley (04:27): Jesus, Ian Cron (04:27): That Andy Stanley (04:27): Was great. Ian Cron (04:28): Yeah. So type fives are called the investigators. They’re analytical, detached, and very private. They’re probably the most emotionally detached number on the Enneagram by far. They’re motivated by need to gain knowledge to conserve energy and avoid relying on others. Sixes are called the loyalists. They’re committed, they’re practical, they’re witty. They’re worst case scenario thinkers who are motivated by fear and the need for security, safety, and support. Sevens are called the enthusiasts. They’re fun, they’re spontaneous, they are adventurous as all get out. They’re motivated by a need to be happy and to plan stimulating experiences and to dream of futures filled with unlimited possibilities. Andy Stanley (05:21): My middle child is a seven, and our whole experience with him growing up, of course, we didn’t know anything about the Enneagram, but our experience with him went like this, so what are we going to do? Well, this is what we’re going to do. What are we going to do after that? Well, what are we going to do after that? I’m like, well, we haven’t even done the first thing. I haven’t planned that far ahead, but it was all about a sequence of fun interactions and experiences. And when I finally understood that, it made so much more sense, and I wish I’d known that earlier as a parent. Anyway, you can keep going. Ian Cron (05:54): Well, you just did a great advertisement for how powerful the Enneagram is in the context, not just a business or a church, but also just marriages and families as a whole. I have a seven son by the way as Andy Stanley (06:08): Well. Oh, you do? Ian Cron (06:08): Oh boy. So I could tell you stories type eights, they’re called the challengers. They’re commanding, they’re intense, they’re domineering, confrontational at times. They are motivated by need to assert strength and control over others in the environment in order to mask tender and vulnerable feelings. And the last one, nines, the peacemakers, often called the sweethearts of the Enneagram. I’m married to a nine. I have a nine daughter as well. Pleasant, laid back, accommodating, go with the flow of people. They’re motivated by a need to keep the peace to merge with others and to avoid conflict at all costs. Wow. Andy Stanley (06:53): Okay. So as you listened to that, of course you were thinking about yourself, number one, because that’s what we do. And then you were thinking about your spouse and perhaps your kids. So before we dive into decision making for the person, this is their first experience or their first introduction to the Enneagram, where can they go to discover more just about where they fall on the continuum? I know there are several tools. What would you recommend as the first step? Ian? Ian Cron (07:17): I’m going to be shamelessly. That’s all for a moment. So there are lots of incredible books on the Enneagram. Most of them are 500 pages, very technical, great for therapists, some for lay people, but it’s just a big, you got to quit your day job to read ’em. You know what I’m saying? Right. So the road Back to You, this book that I wrote was specifically written to be a primer. You could learn just enough about the Enneagram that it would make a positive difference in your life, but if you decide to never read another book on it, you’d get your money’s worth. The other resources, if you went to my website, ian morgan Cron.com, hit the tab for IEQ nine. That’s our Enneagram assessment. It is, in my estimation, the most accurate Enneagram assessment that’s available. Andy Stanley (08:11): So the website one more time is Ian Cron (08:13): Ian morgan Cron.com Andy Stanley (08:15): And just hit the tab and the code is Ian Cron (08:17): North point 2020, Andy Stanley (08:19): North point 2020. This is the assessment I took. Ian Cron (08:21): Yes, Andy Stanley (08:21): It helped me tremendously. And I’ve, again, there’s a fee, but I’m telling you what you learn not only about yourself, but in terms of leadership. Again, as we’re going to discover, and as we talked about last time Ian was in the studio, there are so many layers to the Enneagram as it relates to relationships at home and it works. So the topic today is decision-making. The way we make decisions is certainly impacted by our Enneagram. And the way we respond as we’re going to see to decisions made about us is also impacted. So let’s work through the nine types and talk about their approach to decision making. And let’s begin with number one, Ian Cron (08:58): Number one, Andy Stanley (08:58): Number one, Ian Cron (08:59): The improvers. Andy Stanley (09:00): The improvers. I’m so excited. Ian Cron (09:03): So I think when approaching a decision, improvers first use their gut and then quickly use their heads to double check their gut reaction. Andy Stanley (09:14): So they go with intuition first. Ian Cron (09:16): Is Andy Stanley (09:16): That gut intuition? Ian Cron (09:17): Yeah, this gut feeling intuition. But then quickly their mind jumps in to evaluate the wisdom of what their gut just told ’em. Andy Stanley (09:26): And this is why I second guess my decisions quickly. Really? Yes. As a one, I feel like I know I’ll even announce it and begin moving in a direction. And then as I’m driving home or late that night, I begin running it through the filter of intellect only. And of course when you do that, you can find flaws with everything in the Ian Cron (09:47): World. Andy Stanley (09:48): And so that is the pattern. And I’ve had to learn to ignore the voice and trust my instinct. Ian Cron (09:56): So I think everyone asks a question when faced with a decision. And I think Improvers ask themselves, what’s the principle thing to do? Which decision has the most integrity? And that’s been my experience of ones, and I think that’s true. And a tip for ones would just be careful that your need to make the perfect decision doesn’t cause unnecessary delays. Andy Stanley (10:22): And today in the studio with us are several people. And Susie, who is our producer who works for me, she is an eight. Correct? And we’ll get to that in a minute. And I’ve learned with the eights, I’m surrounded by eights because eights, they get things done that the worst thing I can do is to hold up their progress Andy Stanley (10:43): By Andy Stanley (10:43): Delaying a decision unnecessarily are thinking it through so many layers that they’re like, could you just make a decision? So this is something I’ve had to learn. And for those of you who are in leadership who are surrounded by eights, and if you wonder why they’re frustrated, it’s not them. It’s just when the one meets the eight and the one is the boss. So Ian Cron (11:04): That’s right. Andy Stanley (11:04): Yes. Susie would be a far better boss than, I’m fortunately the reason I’m the boss, why I’m the boss, I got here first. It has nothing to do with leadership IQ or anything else. Okay, let’s keep moving. Number two, Ian Cron (11:17): Okay, the helpers, right? So when they’re making decisions, as you might imagine, helpers rely on feelings and the impact of the decision on their relationship with others. So the question they’re they’re going to ask themselves is, will this decision negatively impact other people? They’re the most interpersonal number on the Enneagram. They’re literally going to think, well, how will this decision affect Barbara? She’s pregnant, she’s a single mom. I mean, they go, actually, they zero in on an individual and they start thinking it through. Andy Stanley (11:48): Wow. Ian Cron (11:48): So I tell twos, making decisions, don’t let your feelings stand in the way of hard decisions Andy Stanley (11:56): That might be, will it to avoid a decision that negatively impacts someone simply because it negatively impacts someone, is that Ian Cron (12:03): Because they’re so interpersonal, they go to bed thinking about relationships, they wake up in the morning thinking about relationships. Relationships are everything to them. So they’re going to be thinking, how will this decision impact others? And so that’s going to be the first thing going through their mind. And I just have to tell them, don’t let your feelings stand in the way of making our Andy Stanley (12:26): Decision. But when you say feelings, the way they hear that is don’t let your compassion stand in the way. Don’t let your sensitivity, which sounds like your anti virtues at that point. Right? So how does a two decide, okay, it feels like I’m not being a caring person. Twos Ian Cron (12:42): Would need to learn that feelings, that compassion itself is a feeling. Empathy is a feeling. Sometimes hard decisions have to be made that will be difficult, will be possibly bruising to others, but they still have to be made. The question is, can you make them compassionately? And with empathy, can you be clear and compassionate at the same time? Andy Stanley (13:05): And that is difficult for twos because the compassion, what I’ve seen happen is in their desire, and correct me if I’m wrong about this, in their desire to be compassionate, when the conversation is over, they haven’t been clear. That’s right. This is especially true for a manager who is a hiring manager who is then having to either discipline someone within the organization or let them go. And at the end of the conversation, they feel like they’ve been clear. The other person walks out and it’s like, am I fired? Am I on probation? So again, this is when you have to write it all down, hand them a piece of paper to make sure when they walk out, they walk out with clarity. Because in my desire to be compassionate, it’s easy to lose clarity. Ian Cron (13:47): So I worked with a CEO of a company was a two, and he was asking my advice about firing one of his top people. And I said, when they come in and sit down, I want you to say the hardest thing first, Bob. I wanted to know I’m going to let you go, and now I want to talk to you about the reasons why. Andy Stanley (14:08): Yeah, don’t bury that lead. Ian Cron (14:10): Exactly. Lead with the truth. Always lead with the hardest truth first. And you’ll be in a lot better shape than trying to amp up to it. I think on the root up, that’s when you start to get cloudy and nebulous and detours and everything else. Andy Stanley (14:24): And then somebody says, well, how did it go? And the two says, I think it went great. And then they ask the other person, how did it go? It’s like, I don’t know what, I’m not sure. Okay. Working our way through the numbers, what does a three look like when it comes to making decisions? Ian Cron (14:37): Three is the performers. So when they’re making a decision, they will rapidly consider what are the pros and the cons, and then move very quickly to plans in action. So the question they’re going to ask themselves is, what’s the most efficient choice? I have to tell ’em all the time, don’t let expediency blind you to the impact of your decision on other people. Andy Stanley (15:03): Their tendency is to overlook how their decision impacts other people, Ian Cron (15:06): Because their attention, focus of attention tends to be on the goal line all the time. It’s about we got to cross the finish line first. Well, you got to remind ’em that there are people between you and the goal line, and you just can’t tackle or take down everybody on route and expect to have a functioning team at the end. Andy Stanley (15:28): And this probably ties back into the fact that threes like to win because threes like to be winners and threes like to be the most popular. And so in an effort to score themselves high in terms of a task, it would make sense that their sensitivity quo may drop in the process. Is that correct? Ian Cron (15:44): Yeah. I mean, I think when they’re unhealthy, they’re ambitious in the worst sense of the word. Andy Stanley (15:51): Talk a little bit more about that. Ian Cron (15:53): Well, they’re lone wolfs. They’re not team players. They want to win. They want to be successful. Now, that’s in their most unhealthy expression. When they’re healthy, they want the team to win. They don’t have to drive the bus. They’re perfectly happy being on the bus. They don’t have to flaunt their success. They actually want to hear about your success and ask you, how can I make you more successful? Andy Stanley (16:18): So what does it look like when a healthy three makes a decision? Are they less prone to run over people between where they are in the goal line, or Ian Cron (16:25): I think they’re going to balance efficiency with relationships, and they’re not going to confuse efficiency with effectiveness. Andy Stanley (16:35): And the unhealthy three Ian Cron (16:38): Is going to want to get to that goal line as efficiently and as quickly as possible without thinking about people on route to it. Andy Stanley (16:47): Wow. Now I know we’re jumping ahead, and this may not be a fair question. Okay. An unhealthy three sounds to me a little bit like the direction an unhealthy eight would trend toward is that Ian Cron (16:59): It might sound the same, but the motivation is very Andy Stanley (17:02): Different. Okay. Oh yeah, that’s right. Ian Cron (17:03): Right. The motivation is, Andy Stanley (17:04): Alright, well we’ll get to an eight in just a Ian Cron (17:05): Minute. And by the way, eights are usually far more aggressive than a three is A three would be more diplomatic. Eights diplomacy is not a gift for eights. Alright, so let’s talk about fours. The individualists fours tend to make well considered value-based decisions, often utilizing intuition, which scares other numbers to death. They may make a decision saying, I have this feeling, this intuition, that this is the direction in which to go. It can take them a long time to get to the decision, but they are intuition based. Well, they’re Andy Stanley (17:48): Artists and poets. That’s right. They live more in that world than some of the other Ian Cron (17:54): Numbers, which is why a tip that I get, and people don’t think they’re fours in business, but there are plenty of fours in business. I know some great four leaders. I just always have to remind them when you make a decision, you can’t just do it on the basis of feelings. Make sure you add critical thinking to your decision-making Andy Stanley (18:12): Process, especially when you’re explaining your decision to your team. Right? Exactly. If you’re a solo artist all day long, but when you’re sitting around the table and you have an idea and intuition, I mean, if I’m trying to follow a four, you got to give me more than you have a feeling about something. Ian Cron (18:29): And they lead by force of personality. The Andy Stanley (18:32): Force do Ian Cron (18:33): Force of personality. They oftentimes have big and they’re very creative and they’re very intense, and they can be very intimidating. They tend to be articulate and they can speak in metaphor and symbol and image, all that stuff. Andy Stanley (18:44): So give us an example of a four that perhaps we’ve all heard of. Who is a four that’s a leader, maybe a business leader? Ian Cron (18:51): So I can only speculate because from a distance, I don’t know the unconscious motivation driving, Andy Stanley (18:57): You wrote the book. You should just know this though. I’m sorry. Go ahead. Well, I think you know what, while you’re trying to think of an answer, I’m sorry to spring this on you. So our audience knows for a long time, I thought I was a five because my daughter who was with us in our last time you were here, she was part of the podcast. She’s a three. She told me I was a five. She just felt like I was so emotionally detached. Dad, you’re a five. You don’t even need to read the book or take the test. You’re a five. And then we met at a catalyst conference and we were both walking out the door and I mentioned I was a five and you kind of looked at me. I don’t think so. You need to take the test. So anyway, you were so good at just pegging me as a one. I just assumed. Anyway, go ahead. So we’ll trust your judgment. Who comes to mind when you think of a famous four? Ian Cron (19:44): Yeah, so maybe Anna Wintour, the editor of Vogue Magazine. The movie The Devil Wears Prada is loosely based on her life, but so intense driven. People don’t tend to, they think of fours wandering around just reading poetry and picking flowers. And I’ve known some great leaders at Herman Miller, leaders at Ritz Carlton, at Tiffany’s, but of course that makes sense. Those are all companies that require creatives in the mix. Andy Stanley (20:18): They’re all about environments and creating environments or creating something. And the fours are the creators. So that would make sense. Ian Cron (20:24): Yeah. They are exquisitely attuned to aesthetics and beauty. Andy Stanley (20:29): Moving on number five, the thinkers. Ian Cron (20:32): Yeah. When it’s time to make a decision, fives will research and analyze all the relevant facts and then make logical, thoroughly reasoned decisions. So before they make a decision, they’re going to ask themselves, what do the facts and data say? That’s basically all they trust. For example, if they are with someone who’s made a decision based on feelings or intuition, they have no time for it. Andy Stanley (21:01): So they shouldn’t work for Ian Cron (21:02): Fours. No, they should not work for fours. The five will go, have you really done the research on that? Do you have the graphs? Do you have the data that says this is the right decision? But that’s why I think I tell fives all the time to make wiser and faster decisions. They can’t rely solely on their mind. They need to consult their heart and their gut as well. And if they’re really out of touch with them, they better have some people around them who are gut and hard people. Andy Stanley (21:32): So a famous five who would be a famous five, we know you’re guessing. Ian Cron (21:35): Yeah. I would say Bill Gates. Have you seen the documentary Inside Bill’s Mind? Andy Stanley (21:41): No. Ian Cron (21:41): Oh, promise me you’ll watch it. Andy Stanley (21:43): I promise on the podcast. I promise Ian Cron (21:45): I can’t Andy Stanley (21:45): Promise I’ll watch it today. Ian Cron (21:47): No, no, seriously. First of all, he’s fascinating. He’s a very strong leader and he’s a five. And it’s so clear on the documentary, he’s a five, really an amazing person. Andy Stanley (21:59): So six is how does Sixes make Ian Cron (22:02): Decisions? One of my favorite numbers on the Enneagram, I love sixes, the loyalists. Now sixes are going to think long and hard about the impact of all the possible decisions, including all the worst case scenarios that might become problems or disasters. Andy Stanley (22:22): So they’re going to let their minds go down all the different paths. Ian Cron (22:25): Oh, you bet. Andy Stanley (22:26): Okay. Ian Cron (22:26): Yeah. And they’re going to have a chorus of voices in their head offering different opinions. And so I think the question they’re going to ask themselves is, which decision involves the least risk? I mean, that’s why you want to risk manager to be a six. That’s why you want your CFO to be a six on the Enneagram. I worked with a company where the founder, CEO was a seven, very common, very, very common that the entrepreneur is the seven. And one of the smartest things he did was hire a six CFO. Andy Stanley (22:58): Wow. On purpose. Purpose or it just turned out Ian Cron (23:00): On purpose. And then I worked with a company in Silicon Valley, and this is a true story. It was like 10, 28 year olds that a venture capital firm dropped $28 million on because they had a great product. And I went out there to meet with them, and this young guy says to me, I just need to talk to you about one of my employees. He’s our oldest employee. He was like 38 ancient. By the way, I’m having this conversation over ping pong because that’s how it works in their office. And he said, we do these dream team meetings and we have a whiteboard. And I get up there and I’m saying, we’re going to take down Amazon. We’re going to take down Google. This is how we’re going to do it. And he says, it never fails. This goes up in the back of the room and everyone just goes, they know it’s coming. And he’ll say, you know what? I think that sounds like a really good idea, but maybe we should wait until next year in the fourth quarter when we have more cash flow and he’s spotting the worst case scenario, the problem. So this young guy says to me, I’m thinking of firing him. And I grabbed this kid by the lapels, and I said, the last thing you want to do is fire that guy because he is the only thing standing between you and jail. (24:25): You need to have someone who knows how to tap the Andy Stanley (24:27): Brakes. Yeah, no, we all need guardrails. Ian Cron (24:29): Yeah, yeah. We all need ’em. And that’s what a six is. You just have to teach them how to express it without sounding like eor. And it’s possible. I love sixes. They’re fantastic people. Andy Stanley (24:39): Sevens how to sevens make decisions, the outgoing, fun, everything has to be fun, highly relational. Gosh, Ian Cron (24:46): Yeah. So they’re going to come up with multiple options for possible decisions as well as a variety of ways to take action on them. Now, you know how that works. They’re thinking the future. These are people who know how to take in a lot of information. They see overlapping patterns, how things can be synthesized, hybridized. I mean, they’re really brilliant at it, but they can get too much into it. So I always tell them, don’t be impulsive, which is a problem for them, and make sure that you have all the information before you make a decision. Sometimes they’ll say, I got a great idea. And then they run off and do it without considering all the information. Andy Stanley (25:29): So a famous seven, Ian Cron (25:31): Steve Jobs, I think Steve Jobs is probably a seven. Andy Stanley (25:34): And you say that because I mean obviously there’s the creative element and the big thinking element and chasing lots of ideas because that sounds a little bit like a four. But Ian Cron (25:44): Yes. No, he definitely was not a four. Andy Stanley (25:47): Oh, he wasn’t? Okay. Ian Cron (25:47): No, definitely not a four. I would say that because he was an explorer. He is an adventurer. Remember all the time he spent in India, he was drawn to kind of mystical themes that affected him later in his business life. And also because he had a perfectionist streak, which would make sense for a seven. And man, when you read Walter Isaacson’s book about him, you can see that perfectionism coming out often in the worst of ways. So I would say he was probably of not so healthy. Seven. Andy Stanley (26:18): So sevens can borderline on perfectionism. Ian Cron (26:21): So when they’re under stress, they go to the low side of one, they become unhealthy perfectionists, they’re always going to be a seven. They’re just going to look, act and behave in the world like an unhealthy one. Andy Stanley (26:37): And that brings us to Susie. I mean, that brings us to the eights. Ian Cron (26:42): Yeah, the challengers. Andy Stanley (26:45): How do challengers make Ian Cron (26:46): Decisions? Well see if this sounds familiar. So when eights make decisions, they go bigger, they go home, man, they’re not afraid to make big, immediate, gut-based decisions. Now remember you said to me that three sound like that (27:04): They (27:04): Won’t make decisions that way. Remember, threes are afraid of failure. So they’re not going to take the same kind of risk that an eight will make. They will be much more deliberate. They got the board out, pros and cons. I mean, eights make decisions right from their gut, and they’ll do it quickly. And even if it’s a really big decision, they’ll do it that way. Andy Stanley (27:25): Well, here’s what I’ve learned about that, about eight, and I didn’t mean to interrupt. I have learned to trust the decision making ability of eight, because I know for me being a one that my tendency again is to I know what I feel, but then I start second guessing and then I go into data collection mode. (27:46): And I have found that when I start moving in that direction, there are two or three eights that I can call. And when their initial response lines up, I’ve learned to distrust that. In fact, in terms of Enneagram, this has probably been the most helpful thing to me as a leader to trust the gut of the eights. And because I know who they are in the organization, because we’ve incorporated this thinking in our organization, I know who they are. Of course, you can generally tell who they are anyway, but I’ve learned to trust their gut when it comes to decision making. They’re good. Ian Cron (28:25): Yeah. They’re always thinking which decision will maintain forward motion. Andy Stanley (28:31): Yep. They love power. Ian Cron (28:32): It’s all about motion. Andy Stanley (28:33): Yep. Ian Cron (28:33): The energy’s driving forward all the time. And so that’s why I have to tell them sometimes slow down, you could afford to consider the downstream impact of your decision. So I worked with a company not long ago, and there were 12 senior management people in the room. And it was a big company, and I would bet probably 500, I’m not exaggerating of the employees of that company were fives. They were coders, and their new boss was an eight on the management team. And I said to him, how’s it going? He goes, not so well Andy Stanley (29:13): Because they’re moving so slow. Ian Cron (29:15): Well, first of all, that huge amount of energy that larger than life presence was overwhelming to the fives. It feels intrusive, it feels invasive, it feels overwhelming. They only have so much energy for relationships. They’re trying to conserve it. Eights are sucking it out of them. And so I said, well, you just got back a whole host of surveys from your people. You’ve had a banner year. What did they, they’re unhappy with us. They want to know what we’re doing. We’re not communicating enough, blah, blah, blah. And I said, well, you are all eights. You are assuming that everybody is an eight. And what you’re not taking into considerations downstream, there are fives and twos and sevens, and they’re all responding to these enormous changes, and they’re exhausted from it. They just can’t keep up with you. So this is why it’s so helpful to know the Enneagram. It is predictive in a way that not perfect, but it’s really useful. Andy Stanley (30:19): So that’s the eight. And last, but certainly not least, the nines, how do nines make decisions? Ian Cron (30:25): Yeah. Well, they’re called the sweethearts of the Enneagram. I’m married to a nine, I’m the father of a nine, so I have some affection and inside knowledge on how peacemakers make decisions. So they’re going to listen to varying perspectives and alternatives and then make the decision based on consensus. Andy Stanley (30:45): So they’re consensus builders? Ian Cron (30:46): Yes, absolutely. And they can make great leaders. In fact, I think our best presidents have been nines, Andy Stanley (30:53): For example. Ian Cron (30:54): Well, lemme put it this way, the worst Andy Stanley (30:56): Before you tell us your favorite president, Ian Cron (30:58): No, it’s not my favorite president. But depending on what side of the aisle you were on, you can’t deny that they were effective Andy Stanley (31:06): In Ian Cron (31:06): What they were going to do. Ronald Reagan was a nine for sure. Andy Stanley (31:10): Now, what makes you say that about Ronald Reagan? Ian Cron (31:13): The demeanor. I mean, he’d be off at camp David riding his horse while people were back in Washington doing their thing. So listen, I think Bill Clinton was a nine. Barack Obama was a nine. The reason is Clinton, for example, he could get people around the table. I mean, who else, but a nine could solve Northern Ireland and the Balkans, if as a peacemaker, they didn’t have the ability to bring people to the table and find middle (31:40): Ground (31:41): And get consensus nines. That is their superpower. When they’re in their best space, when they’re not in their best space, they don’t actually land on a decision. They just keep talking to all the alternatives Andy Stanley (31:55): Because they can’t make a decision until they feel there’s consensus or until they’ve reached consensus, or Ian Cron (32:01): It’s because they’re afraid of conflict. They’re afraid to say, this is the direction. Based on everything I’ve heard here, this is the direction we’re going to go in, because that’s going to disect four out of the five people at the table. Gotcha. Andy Stanley (32:12): So when somebody listening discovers they’re a nine, and it’s like, oh, good, I’m like a president. Oh no, I am going to have a tendency to wait too long to make the decision. How does a nine overcome that? What can be negative inertia? Ian Cron (32:26): It’s all about self-awareness. There was this study done at Cornell in their business school, and they did a study of 72 high performing CEOs of companies ranging from 50 million to 5 billion bucks. And what they wanted to know was what quality or characteristic did these people have that accounted for their success? And everybody thought the answer was going to be grit, determination, strategic planning, et cetera. And the answer that came back upended their expectations. Here’s the quote from the study, the key predictor of success among leaders is self-awareness. Andy Stanley (33:03): Wow. That was the commentary Ian Cron (33:05): Made. That is the direct quote. So I think, and self-awareness means the ability to monitor and self-regulate your behavior in real time, watching how it’s affecting other people. It’s not running on autopilot. You’re awake and you’re aware and you’re monitoring, and you’re, again, Andy Stanley (33:32): Well, again to our podcast listeners, your book, once you discover your number and you read about yourself, like any evaluation tool, but for some reason this one more than others, when you read about yourself, you cannot help but become self-aware because you either go, oh, that’s me. Or you say to your spouse or your partner, or your best friend, does this sound like me? Or you say, but I don’t think I do that. And then they just stare at you like, Ian Cron (33:59): Yes, exactly. Andy Stanley (34:00): And the stare means you are not self-aware, but you now have an opportunity to become so, because, I mean, and that’s when we read this as a family and talked about it as a family, I would get to that part, but I don’t do that. Do I silence around the table? I guess I do. And now I’m aware that I do. So if that is the number one predictor of, or the common denominator among successful leaders, then the Enneagram in this book in particular is certainly a tool to help a person, if nothing else become more self-aware. So that’s fascinating. Ian Cron (34:32): Yeah, absolutely. So this is a very timely decision because you’ve just written a book about decision making, which I read yesterday. So there were a number of things in the book that really were eyeopening for me, and one was the issue of pay attention to the attention. And it made me sit up because I have an issue in my life right now where I have not been paying attention to the attention. And I was telling Susie earlier, if you get one sentence sometimes out of a book that changes a direction in your life, it was worth the other 200 pages. Just that Andy Stanley (35:11): One thing. Hopefully there were some other good things in Ian Cron (35:12): There as well. Oh, there was on Legacy and other stuff like that. But that sentence, that idea was a game changer. That book is going to be a game changer for people. Andy Stanley (35:20): Well, thanks. Well, it’s called Better Decisions, fewer Regrets, and I’m excited about it. And these are life lessons. The book is organized around five questions people should ask every time they make a big decision. So hopefully it will help some folks make better decisions and live with fewer regrets. To all of our listeners, we want to thank you for joining us and invite you to visit andy stanley.com. That’s andy stanley.com where you can download the Leadership podcast application guide that actually includes a summary of this discussion along with questions for reflection, either for yourself or for your entire team. Comments are closed.