By Allen Haynes • November 18, 2024 Listen to the podcast. Andy Stanley (00:00): Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I’m Andy Stanley and I’ll be your guide today. This month I have my good friend in the studio with me to talk about what he calls Belongship. So thanks for coming back. Sangram Vajre (01:35): Yeah, I’m excited to be here. Andy Stanley (01:46): Yeah, a little bit about Sangram. Sangram actually ran marketing for Pardot, which you may be familiar with, which was acquired by ExactTarget. And then ExactTarget was acquired by Salesforce for about $3 billion, and Sangram was there for that entire journey. And last time you said that was like an instant MBA? Sangram Vajre (02:15): Yeah, it’s like a masterclass like none other. Andy Stanley (02:17): Yeah, just extraordinary experience. So currently Sangram serves as the chief evangelist for Terminus. He co-founded Terminus, which is a B2B company, business to business sales company, hit about a million dollars of sales the first year. He talked a little bit about that story last time, raised over 120 million, a little under 300 employees. It’s just gone gangbusters. But in the midst of that, authored a couple of books including an award-winning book, A BM is B2B, why B2B marketing and sales is broken and how to fix it. So if you are in B2B marketing or are interfacing with companies that are doing that, you may want to check that out. And Sangram has a podcast, which as I mentioned last month is a bit intimidating because the Andy Stanley Leadership podcast is about 25 minutes once a month and you have a daily podcast. Sangram Vajre (03:07): Hey, we have to get into how daily it is because how much I do versus how the community does is a big part of today’s conversation. Andy Stanley (03:14): Yes. So we’re going to talk a little bit about that. So let’s jump right in before we get distracted again, you developed this term Belong Ship. So what is it, why is it important? What’s the takeaway for our audience? And honestly, and I told you this before we started, the term Belong ship sounds a little bit squishy, a little bit soft. So Sangram Vajre (03:33): It absolutely does. It absolutely does. And it almost felt like for a, for-profit organization, that sounds like, well, it’s not really the way you write business. You want a winning culture. If I said that, people were like, yeah, you want excellence, you want performance, all these things just comes to you naturally, but belong ship now that for people is like, well, yeah, it’s kind of squishy. And especially as we get into the framework a little bit, it might sound even more, but I want to share that we hit 1,000,010, 15, all these numbers are coming in, and I go back and look at it. Where did that come from? What did we do that was unique enough for us to hit for first time founders like we are based out of Atlanta. And I’ll give you a quick story before that. But as I was driving in here, I recognized that there’s another way to explain this idea of the long ship. Have you ever driven a Jeep? Andy Stanley (04:24): Yes. Both of my sons, actually, I bought them, used Jeep Cherokees. Yeah. Sangram Vajre (04:28): So there’s a wave sign that you do every time you’re driving by another Jeep. I’ve heard about this. This is the craziest thing. I did not realize this. So I went to University of Alabama and I drive a Jeep, and I recognized that every time I was driving the first couple of days, everybody who had a Jeep would do a wave sign to me Andy Stanley (04:47): With the two fingers, Sangram Vajre (04:48): With the two fingers. Andy Stanley (04:48): It’s better than one. Sangram Vajre (04:49): Yeah, right? Absolutely. So that was a good sound. I’m like, I was a little bit suspicious, but now I know. But then I realized that that’s the belong ship, right? You are on a road and all of a sudden somebody you don’t know is a stranger, but they feel a sense of belonging. To me, that’s the best way I can think of for somebody to recognize that it’s such a successful brand is people feel like they’re part of something. So when I think about Belong Ship is that Belong ship is where people feel these three things. They feel that they’re trusted, they feel that it’s a safe environment, and they feel like you care about them. And again, these three things are, as we all know individually, everybody talks about it. But when they come together in an environment where trust is there, safety is there, care is there, you feel like, oh my God, I can run through walls. (05:39): And I saw that firsthand at Terminus. So the framework that I went back and looked at, I call it the Peak framework, PEAK, each letter stands for something. But it came out of an investor conversation I had about three years ago. An investor invited me and said, Sangram, I want you to and share how you guys built Terminus here. And I’m like, yeah, totally fine. I thought I was going to talk about marketing over there. He’s like, no, no, no. I want you to tell about the process, the thought process around this. And that’s where I, like I was forced to create something to explain what we did and how we did. And that’s how the Belong Ship concept really came out. And can I ask one question before Andy Stanley (06:16): You talk more about that? Because here, just to push back when soft concepts are talked about within the context of business, I think the assumption is, and maybe this is true, but you’re about to say it’s not. The assumption is, well after you get things up and running, once you’re successful, then you can sit back and talk about, let’s just all love each other, get along and have some beanbag chairs and a ping pong table. But the assumption is culture is an afterthought because who has time to think about it? What you’re about to pitch is that it’s not an afterthought. And in your experience with Terminus currently, you’re about to try to convince us this was upfront in the beginning and it was a part of why you were so successful. Is that right? Absolutely. I feel like, and you’re promising me on a microphone, this wasn’t an afterthought. So you had something to talk about. Sangram Vajre (07:11): Absolutely true. Absolutely true. Andy Stanley (07:11): And I’m pushing you because that’s sort of the assumption. It’s like, oh, yeah, well, of course you can have all this culture. Sangram Vajre (07:16): As a matter of fact, I’ll give an example back to you for every one of those things, because that was, I had to go back and literally go back to the drawing board. So what did we do? Because you are in the motion of building a startup. You don’t know what you’re doing, you just keep doing it and keep moving forward. But sometimes you take a step back and look at it. So when the investor called and said, Hey, look, I have a billion dollar invested in this room. There are about 75, 85 CEOs here. I know 80, 90% of them are going to fail. And I was like, well, that’s what you think about us too. Maybe because we got a lot of investments from them. They said 85, 90% of them are going to fail, and there are only five or six companies that are going to do what you guys did. They’re going to outperform. Andy Stanley (07:55): So these are all Sangram Vajre (07:56): Startups, these are all startups, CEOs of startups, CEOs of startup companies. And I’m like, okay. He said, tell the process that you went through and I had to succinctly pull it together. So I came up with a framework and I said, well, I’m calling it Belong Ship, because I think what we created, not for just our team, but the entire community, a place where people felt they belong. So they’re like, well, how did you do it? So I came up with this framework called P-E-A-K-P stands for Picture of success. So let me give a concrete example as to what we did to support that. We didn’t know that before, that hey, that’s what we did. But that’s what it came about. Picture of success means not that we’re going to have a million in revenue. That’s what a lot of companies have startup. I want to have a million that’s not picture of success. (08:42): That’s like, okay, well, I’m not going to run through all for that, but picture of success today, we are going to change the way marketing and sales is done. So we created a funnel that every marketing salespeople understood, and we flipped it and called it my funnel. Now, that way people knew this is what we are trying to do. We are changing the way marketing and sales is done for decades. That became the picture of success. That became the book, that became the podcast, that became the thing that people rallied around, and that became a community. You’ve heard me say this, without a community, you’re simply a commodity. That became the rally. Andy Stanley (09:17): I’ve heard that on your daily podcast, Sangram Vajre (09:20): A daily podcast, I imagine Andy driving around listening to Flip My Funnel. That is just making my day right now. But that was the picture of success, and I challenged everyone. Andy Stanley (09:31): So it was a literal picture. Sangram Vajre (09:32): Yeah, it’s a literal Andy Stanley (09:33): Picture. The funnel. Yeah, Sangram Vajre (09:34): Literal picture. It is not something that you just say, you actually see it, you feel it, and you show it and you present it, you use it. It’s that level. So that’s the P, that’s the PE is extreme focus. Now, we talked about it before we started record. It’s like I think good companies are going to have picture of success because you typically have some sort of mission or vision statement, but boy, if you want to actually deliver on that, you got to be extremely focused. We all know that. We all have squirrel. We just go in different directions, especially as a startup company starts out there, extreme focus is the ability to have this one thing that you’re super focused on. So one of the things we think, and we did as a matter of fact, was like, you know what? We are going to own the narrative. That was our focus. We are going to own the narrative of challenging the status quo. So we said we are going to do something that no other startup typically does. In the very first year, we are going to write a book on this, and we are going to go Wiley or somebody, big publisher to publish our book so that we get authority on that topic. And once we have that, now we can go and tell the world like, this is how to do. And we wrote a book on Andy Stanley (10:45): It even before you’d actually done it, Sangram Vajre (10:48): Even before we have actually, it was literally interviews of 50 different top influences in marketing. Like, Hey, if you were to challenge the status quo of marketing and sales, how would you do it? And we wrote a book on the topic of account-based marketing that became literally the Bible for a b, m or how you do go to market. And that really changed the way because people started looking at us like, well, they got to know it. They wrote a book on it. That just became a thing. It wasn’t about making money. It was about making sure that nobody throws a book away, Andy. So people had it on their desk. We literally created a list of a thousand companies that we wanted as our customers, and we ship the book to each one of them, and then guess what? We’re actually having calls with them because they have a signed autographed book from us. They’re not throwing it away. It’s sitting on Andy Stanley (11:33): Their shelf. Anything that’s written carries authority, and that’s always been the case. So A is what? Sangram Vajre (11:38): A is authenticity. Now that’s going back to squishy. There’s no more squishy word than authenticity right now, right? Everybody talks about it. So here’s how we did it Flip my funnel. When we actually came out with Terminus, we said, you know what? We need to do an event. That’s how startups do. We need to throw an event and tell people that we have arrived. Guess nobody came to that thing because nobody wanted to know about Terminus. Nobody cared about Terminus. Nobody wanted to sponsor Terminus. We were like, what’s wrong? What do we do? We have arrived, but nobody cares about us. We literally went and bought the domain for eight bucks, flip my funnel, call the same sponsors and say, Hey, could you sponsor this event called Flip My Funnel? It’s not a Terminus event. It’s a flip my funnel, which is about changing the way marketing and sales work. (12:23): We’re going to invite these 10 influencers to come and speak at event. Guess what? It was packed. It was packed because it was not about us. And we’d learned. Another big lesson is like, Hey, look, if we don’t make it about us, people are actually going to trust us more. And that’s what authenticity gives us. So we still, to date, we have done probably 50 Flip my Funnel events still today. We do not do a product pitch. It’s an industry conference. Most startups think about doing their own company or maybe their user conference, but we are doing an industry conference from the get go. So this is not an afterthought. We ended up starting in the first year doing flip map conferences. Wow. And then K, and again, this was in the first year. First year we did four conferences, four flip map funnel conferences in the first year Andy Stanley (13:08): As you’re raising capital, developing a product and a sales and marketing arm of the company. Sangram Vajre (13:15): And as a matter of fact, did you sleep Andy Stanley (13:18): During this first year? Sangram Vajre (13:19): Well, there’s a story on that too, which I might get to in a little bit. But here’s the thing. The first conference, we did flip maple right here in Atlanta. We ended up closing 25 deals out of it, and we were a booth just like anybody else. As a matter of fact, we even invited Andy, our competitors, to come and speak at our event, which is a big no-no in a startup. Well, look, why would you bring your competitors to speak? And even today, our competitors speak at every event. But what that did was we owned the narrative, we set the stage, people knew who were behind this thing, but we never went on the stage to say, this is our conference. We said, this is a community conference. This is something where we learn together and we still today do the same exact thing. Andy Stanley (14:02): So that’s authenticity. Sangram Vajre (14:03): Yeah. Andy Stanley (14:03): Yeah. Sangram Vajre (14:04): Wow. And then kindness. Now, if I were to say where you double down on more than anything else is K. And again, in a nonprofit world, maybe that is something everybody talks about it a pro profit, you might say, well, kindness. Well, what’s kindness? You need to win or you’re out of business. Well, from a kindness perspective, we do something that I would highly recommend everybody do in their own organization. We bring in a customer in the office now virtually for our all hands meetings. So we had a customer, I’ll tell you a quick story on that. We had Daniel Day, one of our customers come in. This was in the second year of our company. And he said, so he’s a business Andy Stanley (14:47): Owner. Sangram Vajre (14:47): He is a marketer who buys our product, he our product. He talks about our product. We are like, Hey, why don’t you come and share your experience with it? So we’ll invite them to once a month, all hands meeting where the entire company is sitting and the focus is all on the customer. And we do that for a very big reason. We want everybody from the sales person to the marketing person, to the back office person to know who we serve. It is very, very important. A lot of companies completely miss on that. They just keep going, doing their thing. But if everybody doesn’t know who we are serving and what what matters to them, they’ll change. But here’s what Daniel said, Andy, that still today is talked about in the company. He said, Sangram, you and your organization has changed my life. Wow. His personal life, his personal life. (15:32): And we are like, dude, there’s no way. We are not saving lives here. Come on, we are not doing that. I know you have a lot of respect for us and all that stuff. Come on. He’s like, no, no, you don’t understand. You did. I’m like, how? And this is in all hands live. We had no idea he’s going to say that. Record it. He said, look, because of what the tools and services and the information that you gave me, I can now go to my CEO and tell them how I drive revenue. I never knew how to do that before. (16:03): So now if I get kicked out of this company, I’m okay because I know I can find a job any day. You have changed the way. So I don’t have to worry about a job. You don’t know how big of a deal a stress reliever is for me to do that. And imagine the back office person listening to that, the engineer who is coding those features, they all are like, oh my God, we have plaques everywhere with that quote of this person. Because people know that meant something. It was genuine, it wasn’t scripted. So you think about this picture of success, extreme focus, authenticity, and kindness. There are practical things that we did every single time that led us to create this sense of belonging where people wanted to. We want to be part of this tribe. It is better. It gives us food for how we operate our business, our lives. And even in a software world, I think you can do that and you can do that big time. Andy Stanley (16:55): So ship is defined by those four ideas at peak, right? Yep. That is so fascinating. So back to the meeting with the billion dollar event with all these CEOs. So what was your message? Was that the message? Sangram Vajre (17:50): It was the message was like, Hey, if you want to create a category, if you want to stand out of the crowd today, if you want to go out there and actually make sure that you are not one of those numbers, the 19% that fail, you need to figure out and take some risk. And the risk is really go and actually have a very clear picture of success. Pick that one thing you’re great at, be extremely focused on it. Make sure you do that authentically and with kind. But here is the big message. I hope nobody misses this part, Andy, the p and e, the picture of success and extreme focus. I think most companies have that. And that’s great. That’s how you actually hire great people. Here’s our vision, here’s where we’re going, here’s what we’re doing. You can hire great people, but the A and K, the authenticity and kindness is why your people stay in your company. Andy Stanley (18:38): The good people, Sangram Vajre (18:38): The good people. That’s why your customers want you around. (18:42): That’s how you actually create loyalty Very quickly, Brian Halligan, who’s the CEO of HubSpot, he’s an investor in Terminus, and he said, well, how do you do this? And he said, well, we created Inbound, which is a conference that they created. They don’t call it HubSpot, they call it Inbound for exactly the same reason you think about Salesforce, where I learned from, they call it Dreamforce. They don’t call it Salesforce. So you start thinking about that. Well, this is not something that we just came up with. This is something actually has been done by every category leading company. They have built a community because they no longer want to be a commodity. Andy Stanley (19:17): And again, I could see that five, 10 years down the road, but to have embraced that approach in the first year, and again you’re saying this is why not only were you able to raise the capital, but you were also able to develop a product going back to what we talked about last month, that people actually needed and wanted as opposed to falling in love with a product that people didn’t actually need or didn’t understand that they need. And you’ve kind of talked about this, but this is so important, and we talk about this a lot on podcast, but recreating or trying to fix a culture is so difficult. So if somebody says, Hey, this is helping me, because I mean, every organization has a culture, whether you can define it or not, whether it’s good or not, you don’t have to create culture. You have one. It’s there. You’ve inherited one, you accidentally, the culture is there. So what do you say to the group that says, well, unfortunately I can’t start over. So I’m in a culture that has some strengths, some weaknesses. What are some first steps to begin bringing some of these ideas into an existing culture? Because that’s difficult. Sangram Vajre (20:21): I think you’ve said this, something is like what gets rewarded is repeated. I’ll say the same thing on that. I’ll echo that. I want people to take that home with it because for example, bringing a customer in the office virtually or physically is something that I see 90, 80% of the companies not doing it. I don’t understand that you can literally take that and help that customer shape the messaging and what you are stand for, Andy Stanley (20:47): What makes it extremely personal, Sangram Vajre (20:48): Extremely personal. I think about the most important meetings in your organization. When I ask people what’s the most important meeting, there’s all kinds of meetings people talk about. It’s actually your one-on-one. That’s really where your culture is created, your one-on-one meeting. Because if you’re a leader and you’re having a one-on-one with somebody that reports to you, that person is going to prepare, that’s going to person is stressing about it. That person has an agenda. And if you are late to that meeting, if you don’t show prepared to that meeting, and if you are like you just brush off and you run with your own agenda, adding your culture is created in those one-on-one meetings, Andy Stanley (21:26): Which are meetings that many business leaders, especially CEOs or CFOs avoid because it feels like a waste of time because I’m only talking to one person and I’m not getting anything done. But you’re exactly right, it is where values are shared in the clearest, most succinct way, and it’s where people feel a personal connection. So what else those, Sangram Vajre (21:46): Yeah, so I’ll even think about picture of success. Picture of success doesn’t have to be a big vision statement that you have to iterate over and over again. We have done something for six years now every single week, and I’m dumbfounded when I hear people not doing that, which is every Friday we’ll send a note to the company about what is the state of our company. Every Friday, every single Friday for six years with Eric when I was there, yeah, Eric used Andy Stanley (22:13): To send me, I actually asked Eric, and we didn’t talk about Eric, but Eric’s one of the co-founders. When I first met Eric and he told me about this, I said, send those to me. So he began sending those to Sangram Vajre (22:22): Me every Friday. Andy Stanley (22:23): Yeah, Sangram Vajre (22:24): He did that. I did that. Now Tim Cop, who’s our CEO, he’s doing that every Friday. You can send a note to your company saying where we are. And it doesn’t have to be just rah rah, all the good things. That is how you set your culture. If you are someone who’s just wondering like, well, how do I reset it? Start it. I’ll say, those are very simple things from a picture of success perspective, start sending your Friday notes. Make that a habit. Make that a responsibility and a privilege that you would have as a leader. If you’re thinking about focused, get focused on that one-on-one meeting. Make sure you never skip that. Make sure that you have completely supporting that. And actually that’s how you really start building a great culture and you’re authentic and kind around it. If you want to really truly be authentic and kind, get your customer in the office, make the outside in perspective, shape the way the company’s going to be. Andy Stanley (23:12): Three staff meetings ago at the campus that I am the leader on, supposedly, that’s my title anyway, at North Point Community Church. Holly Goddard is like a chief of staff sort of in that role. And so I’ve let her set the agenda for our NPCC staff meetings, and she does a way better job than I ever did because she’s focused on it. And three meetings ago, she brought in a couple whose experience or their story as it relates to our church is exactly the story we would love to see replicated. They’d never heard of us. Somebody told ’em about us. They don’t go to church. Somebody else told ’em about us. We don’t go to church. I don’t know. It’s the third or fourth invitation. They finally came then. So this is in front of our staff. Here was our experience, and now they’re super involved in volunteering. (23:55): And first of all, the fact that Holly knew them because she knew them personally, invited them again, to your point into the staff meeting to tell their story suddenly exactly. It’s what you’re saying. All these concepts, so many people sit behind a computer screen all day long where we’re blocking and tackling. We’re straightening chairs. It’s just stuff. It doesn’t feel like ministry. And having this couple come in and tell their story, it brought all the emotion back to kind of the tactile blocking and tackling. Here’s another Tuesday, here’s another Wednesday. Feels like last Wednesday. It was so powerful. And as I sat there, I thought Holly’s a great leader to see this opportunity and to arrange it. And of course, I sat there thinking, why didn’t I think of this? But it was so powerful. So you’re exactly right. And to add to what you said for the individual or the team that’s trying to figure out how to fix a culture, and they hear you say that and they think to themselves, well, I don’t know a customer story. What does that tell you? Sangram Vajre (24:59): Oh my. You’re so far removed from the reality Andy Stanley (25:02): Of it. Yeah, I can’t think of a name. I can’t think of somebody that would come in and tell a good story about us. Yeah, that is the story, isn’t it? Sangram Vajre (25:08): That itself is the challenge. It starts with you. The culture is not the person on the other side of the table. The culture is you, how you represent yourself. And every one of our executive members, we actually ask them, you got to have at least 10 customer’s cell phone number on your mobile. You need to have their mobile number so that you can call them up and you have relationship with them. If you don’t have that, if you don’t have that level of relationship with our customers or top customers, then what are we doing? Andy Stanley (25:35): This goes back to something, I know you’ve heard me say it a million times, it’s actually my little subtitle on my social media feed. It’s due for one, what you wish you could do for everyone. And the pushback is, well, we have 500 customers. Well, you can’t have all 500 in your phone, but pick a few because what you do for a few is symbolic for what you wish you could do for everybody. And so that’s critical. Okay. This has been so great. I’m going to completely switch gears because I’m curious, I should have asked you this before we began, but at Terminus, you implemented a forced vacation. Is this true? It’s kind of true. Sangram Vajre (26:14): Do you call it that or is that just what I’ve heard? No, we have asked managers to go, because here’s what happened as a startup, we’re like, we don’t need to do more things. We don’t need people to put their time in on a time sheet or anything like that. So from day one, it was like unlimited vacations, go take it. But here’s what we noticed, Andy. People were not taking vacations. They were constantly working. And we are realizing like, Hey, you have not taken a vacation a day. Oh, I’ll take it. I just need to get this thing done. And we are like, (26:39): That’s a problem. That’s unhealthy. That’s not good for you. And so at some point, we had to go back and we looked at the numbers and details and we saw that, oh my God, there are tons of people who have never actually taken a vacation. We literally told managers, you’re going to have them take a vacation that’s going to be a forced vacation. It’s not on a paper or it’s not a policy or anything like that. Every manager is responsible to make sure that their team members take vacations because this unlimited vacation is not working, which is so weird. So Andy Stanley (27:07): You gave them unlimited vacation and then had to force them to take a vacation. Sangram Vajre (27:12): Yes. It was crazy. How Andy Stanley (27:13): Do you find these people? That’s what everybody’s thinking. How do I find some of those people now? And before we close to stay on this just a minute. So that is an unhealthy culture. We think, no, I want to hire all the workaholics I can. We get more work done. But it’s an unhealthy culture that you, first of all, were aware of and didn’t pat yourself on the back. Like, this is amazing. We give ’em unlimited vacation, nobody taking a vacation. You realize it’s a problem and address that because that’s a culture thing, which feels like a soft thing. But at the same time, we don’t want people to burn out and you don’t get the best of people. Stephen Covey years ago wrote about sharpening the saw you just saw and never sharpened the saw. Eventually you get less work done, spend more time trying to do it. So that’s powerful. Well, before we wrap up, any last words? I mean, imagine you’re sitting in front of entrepreneurs and this is your final thought. What do you say to Sangram Vajre (28:06): Them? Well, a couple of things. One, look at this as not just the belong ship idea is not just an organizational idea, it’s also a family idea. So for example, what baffles me a lot of time is when you think about picture of success and all those things, people think, well, I got to have a vision statement. But people don’t have a vision statement for their own family and don’t have core values. We have to be, call it like Rogers, always make it through with God’s love, grace and truth. Grace and truth. Andy Stanley (28:33): Say that again. That’s great. I’ve heard you say that before talking about your family. Say Sangram Vajre (28:36): It again. It’s my family’s state, but that’s our picture of success. Andy Stanley (28:38): One more time. Sangram Vajre (28:39): Rogers always make it through, but God’s love, grace, and truth. Andy Stanley (28:43): Wow. Sangram Vajre (28:43): So love, grace, and truth. Out of our core values, we will always have love. We will give grace to each other, but we expect nothing less and nothing more than truth in every conversations we have. And if 10 years, 20 years from now, if that’s what happens, that’s a great picture of success. So I don’t want to go through each one of these letters, but if you think about this idea, this framework is that you apply this to an organization, it’ll be a healthy organization. You apply that to your family. It’ll be a family organization. So I’m creating a website called Belong Ship Us, where I’m going to just put some of this information because Andy, quite frankly, this is not for everybody. This whole idea of ship requires somebody to really think about it, take a step back and lean into it. But it’s not something that you can just dip your toes in it. (29:31): You are either all in or you’re all out. You don’t walk into it and walk out of it. So either you’re fully authentic. I cannot tell anybody to be 9:00 AM tomorrow morning. You need to be authentic. It just doesn’t work right? You need to be start kind. It just doesn’t work. So either you are or you’re not, and you have to make that decision. So on Belong, chip us. I’ve just put some resources for people to just walk through that and make a decision. If this is for you and if it is, then lean in fully. Andy Stanley (29:58): Well, this has been fascinating. The only challenge for me is I was not able to take notes while you gave us such great content. But I’m going to go back and do that. And for those of you who listened today and thought, wow, how do I take all that in? Especially if you’re driving or not in a place where you could take notes, just go to Andy stanley.com, Andy stanley.com, and you can download the leadership podcast application guide that actually includes a summary of this discussion along with some questions for reflection for you or your entire team. And of course, make sure you join us next month on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. Comments are closed.