Unlocking Leadership Capacity Transcript

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Andy Stanley (00:02):

Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. A podcast designed to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy. And before we get into today's content, I want to share a special offer from our good friends at belay from startups and small businesses to large corporations. Isn't it true we all want to grow our organizations and we want to get better as leaders, but you need extra time to do what only you can do as a leader, and you don't need to be doing all the things that you're probably, well, not all that good at anyway. And this is where our friends at belay can help belay matches busy leaders with highly vetted US-based executive assistants, marketing assistance and financial experts, real people who step in exactly where you need support while bringing the personal touch that your organization needs. That way you can hand off certain tasks, not worry about it, and focus on what matters most.

(00:56):

And as a special offer to our listeners today, belay is offering a free download of their guide, the Future of Financial Leadership, the Future of Financial Leadership. This resource is going to help you identify where your financial operations may be slowing you down, and how to leverage AI and automation with human discernment to guide decisions that affect real cashflow, real people, and real outcomes. To claim this offer, text the word Andy, A N D Y, to 5 5 1 2 3. That's A N D Y to 5, 5, 1, 2, 3, to become a better leader with belay. And now let's jump into today's content. I've been looking forward to today's episode for quite some time today. There are actually three of us in the studio to talk about, well, honestly, I've never heard anyone else talk about this, so this may be the best conversation that's ever been had on this topic. We're talking about something most leaders depend on, but nobody ever really taught us how to do it. Well, we're talking about leaders and their admins, their administrative assistants. One of the most important relationships in any organization because the admin to the point leader is not just an admin. He or she is a gatekeeper. They often have power and influence that reaches far beyond the walls of the office. And to help us explore, this is someone you have heard me talk about, but today you have an opportunity to hear from my executive assistant for nearly 30 years. Diane Grant, welcome to the podcast studio.

Diane Grant (02:31):

Thank you, Andy. I'm really honored to be here.

Andy Stanley (02:34):

And a little nervous.

Diane Grant (02:36):

And a little nervous, yeah.

Andy Stanley (02:37):

This is Diane's environment. But anyway, Diane has seen it all. She's endured it all. She's endured me all these years and survived it. So we're excited about this conversation and to help guide today's conversation is my co-host Suzy Gray.

Suzy Gray (02:52):

Thanks, Andy. I am so excited about today as well. I have worked with Diane for more than 20 years, and I can say without hesitation, she is the real deal. She is one of the highest capacity leaders I know she is exceptionally smart, very driven, but she's constantly focused on what matters the most and the people around her. I'm not sure how she does it all. I tell her all the time, I don't know how you do it all, but I'm so grateful she does. So, Diane, let's get started with you. I'd love you to introduce yourself to the podcast audience, share a little bit with them about your marketplace background and how you came to be part of the staff.

Diane Grant (03:29):

Thank you, Suzy. Well, I started my career in the medical industry. I'm a nurse, and I worked in the hospital for several years, and then I left the bedside nursing to take a role in medical sales. Spent a few years with a couple of different medical sales companies. I was first a sales rep and then a sales manager. And the last company I worked for had a very unhealthy staff culture, and it became increasingly difficult to deal with. So I quit and it wasn't planned, and so I didn't have another job to go to. So I was sitting at home twiddling my thumbs, wondering what was next. And during that time, NorthPoint was launched and my husband and I knew that that was going to be our church home. So the offices were near my home. So I started volunteering in the office during the week and just did whatever needed to be done. And over time, Andy and the very small staff NorthPoint had at the time started giving me more and more responsibility and eventually hired me for a part-time role. I was the director of resources, which in those days was the tape ministry. So you're older,

Andy Stanley (04:33):

The cassette tape.

Diane Grant (04:35):

The cassette ministry. Yes, that's right. And I still did other things along with that part-time role. And then one day Andy asked if I had thought about working full-time for NorthPoint and if I was interested in coming to work for him. So this was really out of the blue, assisting someone would be a hard right turn for my career. So I knew I needed to think about it, but I realized I was doing contract work in the medical industry to support my volunteer habit at North Point. So my husband and I talked about it and we decided to give it a try. And here we are

Andy Stanley (05:06):

All these years later,

Diane Grant (05:07):

All these years later.

Andy Stanley (05:08):

And one little funny story, little caveat about that is when we first started Rick Holiday, our business administrator and I shared an admin. And so as the organization grew, it was too much for her to support both of us. So I went to Lisa and gave her the option, you can either go full-time to work for me or full-time to work for Rick. And I just assumed she'd want to work for me, and she did not. She told me, well, thank you. She was very matter of fact. And she said, I think I choose Rick and it hurt my feelings.

Suzy Gray (05:41):

Wow, okay. I have never heard these stories

Andy Stanley (05:45):

Well, but knowing her personality, that really was a better fit. And for years, I complimented her on that publicly and privately to say, you know what? That was a bold decision and it was the right decision. And if she had not made that decision, I don't know that we'd be sitting here today talking to Diane. So it all worked out.

(06:02):

Suzy Gray:

(06:02):

It all did work out.

Diane Grant (06:04):

I knew that story. And over time, as I figured out what I was doing in the job, I kept thinking, I can't imagine Lisa enjoying anything that I do. It was just not in her wheelhouse

Andy Stanley (06:17):

She could do it, but she would not enjot it.

Diane Grant (06:19):

She would not enjoy it, no.

Andy Stanley (06:19):

And it is kind of another talk for another day. But Lisa was self-aware enough to know, regardless of what this looks like on the org chart, the better fit for me is to work with our business administrator. So again, that says so much for her and obviously so much for Diane as well.

Suzy Gray (06:36):

That's amazing. So speaking of roles, Diane, let's start with you. I've heard you say that one of the first things a leader has to do is decide which of the two types of assistance they need. Can you unpack what those two types are, which one you are and why that matters to Andy?

Diane Grant (06:52):

I think it all begins with a leader determining what he or she needs. I'm going through a process of figuring out what your priorities are, what your highest and best use for the organization is, and how an assistant could make it easier for you to focus on your responsibilities. What are you willing to hand off? Do you want someone just to manage the routine and the details for you in your office? Like scheduling appointments, fielding phone calls and emails, providing logistical and administrative support, coordinating meetings and office management and those types of things. If so, you're probably looking for what I'll call an administrative assistant. On the other hand, if you want someone who can take things off your plate, more like a strategic partner, someone to help protect your time and your energy, someone good at project management, even project ownership, someone who is good at relationship management, someone who can lead alongside you, has the ability to make decisions on your behalf, then you're probably looking for an executive assistant, a responder versus an anticipator, a task executor versus a strategic partner.

(07:59):

Neither is right or wrong, but the more clarity you have around what you want and need, the more successful you're going to be at hiring that person. If you want an administrative assistant and hire an executive assistant, they'll be able to do the task, but they'll likely get bored quickly, and they may seem to get involved where you don't want them because they're looking for more responsibility. You'll think they're being pushy or meddlesome, when in reality you just hired the wrong skillset. And then on the other hand, if you want an executive assistant, a partner, and you hire an administrative assistant, you may have to constantly push them to step out. They may seem unable to do the job, but it's not really his or her fault. You just hired the wrong person.

Andy Stanley (08:40):

And you know what? I think that was one of the things, even though she didn't have that language, that Lisa Ed, yeah, she sensed that she wanted to give me the task to do and then leave me alone. I mean, that was just a person,

Suzy Gray (08:51):

Lemme check my task,

Andy Stanley (08:51):

Please. Exactly,

Diane Grant (08:52):

Yes.

Andy Stanley (08:53):

And she had worked with Rick and I long enough to know exactly what Diane's talking about. Okay, these are two different people that are looking for two different things. And I'm one, but I'm not the other, so this is super important.

Diane Grant (09:06):

I have another example of that. One of our staff members, one of our coworkers hired someone. She was amazing. She was a great culture fit. Everybody liked her. And over time he realized he was getting more and more frustrated, and they would come out of their meetings and he would have a to-do list, and he realized that she was organized and everything she gave him was perfect. He had a list of all the phone calls and all the emails and all the tasks and all the projects, but she was organizing it to present it to him to do, and that's not what he wanted. He wanted somebody to come in and tell him what she had done to take it off his plate.

Andy Stanley (09:45):

Right. Don't give me a homework assignment.

Diane Grant (09:46):

Yeah, that's what he felt like. She eventually left and it was all amicable. They realized that it was just the wrong fit for the job.

Andy Stanley (09:53):

Yup

Suzy Gray (09:54):

You realized that for Andy, the executive assistant role is really what he needed.

Diane Grant (09:59):

Yes, I did. Although we didn't think about it in those terms in the beginning,

Andy Stanley (10:03):

We didn't

Diane Grant (10:04):

Have that language. I just had already been doing project management, creating systems for the organization as a volunteer and a part-time staff.

(10:14):

It never dawned on me that I would do anything different. When I worked for Andy, it was just from the perspective of the pastor's office from his office. So we just looked into it, I guess.

(10:26):

No, we did. I was certainly not smart enough to know what I needed needed. I don't think I could have verbalized it. And when Diane and I started working together, I was not aware of her capability. I mean, just to date myself, this was back in the day where people still had secretaries. I mean, that was still kind of the language. And Diane certainly did not want to be my secretary, and we didn't use that language, but the idea was, I'm doing a bunch of stuff and I'll hand stuff off to her to hand back to me. I mean, that's really was my mindset. And fortunately, she didn't quit. And fortunately she helped me understand how to have a partner in our office as opposed to somebody that was just waiting for me to give her things to do. Big difference.

Suzy Gray (11:13):

But I actually think this is fascinating because you say in some ways you lucked into it, but some of it was a combination of Diane, your skillset, and then Andy over time as the organization got larger, just what you needed, but you probably couldn't have verbalized. How do you think you started figuring that out? Was it just the job necessitated that, or Diane started asking for more and more and then she did it with excellence and you're like, oh, then take this. How did that happen?

Andy Stanley (11:37):

No, I think it happened over time. And I know there's several questions coming up where we'll get into the

Suzy Gray (11:44):

Detail,

Andy Stanley (11:44):

The details of that, but I had to learn how to leverage her strengths. And she was so patient, and in fact, we can just talk about this now. Years ago when we first started using the right path as an assessment tool, we both took it. And Jerry mab was our consultant at the time, and he told us that we should not be able to work together because we were so alike. And he was kind of, and you can jump in, Diane, he was a little bit dumbfounded that it had worked as long as it had. And what I told him was, well, I think it's because we're mature and Diane's very patient. We're mature enough to navigate some of that. What he anticipated is built-in conflict because we're so alike. But honestly, it really is. Diane, I think gearing down at times to allow me to lead because she's so quick and she anticipates things that I don't. You can weigh in on that.

Diane Grant (12:47):

Well, the conversation we had when Jerry came to the office was, I was so looking forward to meeting you. And of course I said, why? And he said, well, because you're both drivers. And I said, what does that mean? And he said, well, you're very much alike. And I said, is that good? He said, well, in most cases, people really can't work together when they're so alike, but sometimes it's good. And I said, well, when is it good? And he said, when the two of you have decided who controls what? And I thought, okay. I mean, because by that time, we had figured out, I knew what was on my plate, and he knew what was on his plate.

Suzy Gray (13:31):

Is your right path?

Diane Grant (13:32):

We're both drivers.

Suzy Gray (13:32):

Both drivers. And I know you're both Enneagram ones. Yes. Yeah.

Andy Stanley (13:36):

Yeah. It's interesting. I know. But honestly, not just being kind. Diane was just patient with me. And again, as the organization grew, I was having to grow. I mean, I never let anything except the student ministry right before all of this started. So it worked out. And I really do think it's maturity, patience, learning, and for me to be willing to hand things off. And this was one of my early struggles was I didn't want to hand things off. And the tug of war at one point became the calendar.

Suzy Gray (14:11):

Is that the hardest thing to give up?

Andy Stanley (14:13):

Well, it was for me. And in talking to other leaders, oftentimes that's the thing they want to hold onto. I want to put stuff on the calendar. Don't you put stuff on the calendar? And I don't know how many years ago it was, Diane, that you finally pride it out of my hands. Of course, there wasn't even a physical calendar, but you know what I'm talking about, to where she controlled that. And it wasn't a matter of not trusting, it just felt like a loss of control. But to her point, as we've been able to figure out what needs to sit where it is worked out, but again, she's just been very patient.

Suzy Gray (14:46):

How many years in do you think it was before Andy turned over his calendar to you?

Diane Grant (14:50):

Well, it was faster than he thinks it was.

Andy Stanley (14:55):

And she was slowly taking control and I didn't know it.

Diane Grant (14:57):

That's right. Maybe that and maybe.

Suzy Gray (14:59):

She was prying your fingers off one at a time.

Andy Stanley (15:01):

But this is an important point too. She and Sandra, my wife, would work together with calendar things, which was so important because what's going on at home, what's coming up? All those sorts of things. So it did kind of happen over time, but everything started working better. When I finally said, okay, you control the calendar.

Diane Grant (15:19):

Part of it was our meetings to talk about the calendar became more and more cumbersome because I would take the phone calls or the emails, I would come to him and say, here's what's happening. Well, the decision was made. He needs to meet with somebody, or he needs to do this thing that needs to go on the calendar. He would give me some dates. I would go back and respond to the person. Those dates didn't work. So the next meeting I would sit down with Andy and we'd have to come up with other dates. It was very inefficient. It was very inefficient. And so over time, it just became easier. I don't think it ever was a decision, maybe

Andy Stanley (15:54):

It was. No, it was a decision. I just had to decide, do this.

Diane Grant (15:59):

You can do it.

Andy Stanley (16:00):

And we've never gone back. It's been better. It's been great.

Diane Grant (16:02):

And of course, over time, I learned what my decision tree was. I learned what I could say no to. I learned what I could say yes to, and I learned what was in the middle that I needed to bring to the meeting to talk to him about and get his input on whether we should or shouldn't do it or how we should handle it,

Suzy Gray (16:18):

Which probably just built more trust and you felt like, wow, this was a good decision to let it go.

Andy Stanley (16:21):

And the other thing too, and this is so important for somebody in Diane's role, and because of what I do, the two big pieces in my life is I present things and I have to prepare to present things. And finding a time to present is one thing. Carving out enough time to prepare is something else. So she has learned how much time I need and how much time in advance. So the fact that she controls the calendar ensures that I don't load up two or three days because there's nothing in those slots. And forget the fact that on day four I have to make a presentation that I've not carved out time to prepare for, and then I'm at home working all the time. So again, there were so many advantages to that, especially as it relates to what I do and the rhythm of our organization.

Suzy Gray (17:10):

Wow, that's really great. Diane, from your perspective, what do you think leaders most misunderstand about what a strong partnership actually makes possible? Because touched on it a little bit with letting the calendar go and Andy having more time to prepare for presentations, but what do you think of leaders? What do they most misunderstand about that?

Diane Grant (17:31):

I think many leaders don't realize it's really okay to hand things off. They're the leader. It's their responsibility, so therefore they need to do it. But in reality, it's their responsibility. So they need to make sure it gets done, but they don't necessarily have to be the one to do it. So deciding or realizing that it's really okay to hand things off is one. Many leaders don't take time to figure out what their highest and best use is. I think that's really important. And then if it's not on your list of highest and best use, is it something that someone else can do for me? Sometimes leaders don't want to hand things off because they enjoy doing it, but even though they enjoy doing it, it's really a distraction from what they should be doing.

Andy Stanley (18:16):

Part of that, and Diane referenced that earlier, is if a leader will help the assistant understand what is actually most important to him or her,

(18:27):

Then an admin assistant or an executive assistant can ensure that their time and the calendar is calendared to what is most important. A highly relational leader is going to intuitively put people on the calendar, oh, let's meet for coffee, let's meet for lunch. And so a good executive assistant is like, Hey, that's great, but you've told me that's not what your highest and best use is. And we both know that's not really the priority based on what you're here to do. And again, you don't have to use that language, but Diane has helped me the way she says it, let's make sure we put the big rocks in first.

(19:03):

And a lot of people have seen the illustration with the big jars. And if you have a lot of things to put in there, you have to start with the big things before we put the small things. And that's the language she uses. What are the big rocks? I know you want to do these things. I know you enjoy these things, but in terms of time management, let me help you make sure the big rocks are on the calendar. And then you can fill in the pebbles, the pebbles, and the sand on top of the pebbles to go that illustration. And because she's still good at what she does, she anticipates that because time just keeps clicking on by. I don't know if you want to add to that.

Diane Grant (19:39):

Well, I was just going to say for the leader who feels uncomfortable with that whole concept of giving up things, it's okay to not give a hundred percent of it up,

Andy Stanley (19:51):

Right!

Diane Grant (19:51):

gice 90% of it up. So you still have 10% because you enjoy it. But you have to be willing to say, okay, what is my highest and best use? And the calendar needs to reflect that.

Andy Stanley (20:02):

And the admin assistant or executive assistant can be your best friend in that regard. And so many times we're having our calendar meeting and she can see me wanting to move in a direction and she'll be like, but remember, think about now the following Thursday. And again, without that guardrail, I would be in trouble.

Diane Grant (20:25):

You would fill it up. Here's the calendar. Let's make that decision in the context of the entire calendar, not just the next two days.

Suzy Gray (20:32):

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's so good. Well, Diane, what do you think are the emotional skills that assistants need to develop if they want to elevate themselves from a task manager to a world-class assistant?

Diane Grant (20:43):

I think that first and foremost, they need to really know themselves and know how they're wired and know what their skillset is and know what their best use is. They need to be emotionally intelligent.

(20:59):

They need to be self-aware. They need to be able to manage their own emotions. They need to be socially aware. You're representing the leader's office, so you need to be able to recognize what's going on and influence what's going on. They need to be a student of their boss so they can learn how she or he is likely to respond so they can respond on their behalf. I think they need to be able to anticipate. They need to have good judgment. There's a long list. They need to be a good communicator. They're representing the leader's office.

Andy Stanley (21:30):

And the whole organization in some cases.

Diane Grant (21:32):

Yes, the whole organization, they need to be proactive. They need to have initiative. They need to be able to discern what matters most because there's a lot, as we've talked about, they need to be discreet and trustworthy. They're probably going to know things that other people won't know or won't know yet

Andy Stanley (21:50):

Or shouldn't know

Diane Grant (21:51):

Or shouldn't know. And they need to be able to determine what those things are and be able to hold that.

Suzy Gray (21:57):

Yeah, hold them close.

Diane Grant (21:58):

They need to be willing to speak up. They need to be willing to lead up to learn how to lead up, and they need to have thick skin.

Andy Stanley (22:09):

I think I might've thickened Dianne's skin over the years.

Diane Grant (22:14):

Well, but that's part of it. If I'm representing Andy and our organization, then I need to be able to take the hits. And so if it's okay,

Andy Stanley (22:22):

She's taken plenty of those.

Diane Grant (22:23):

And they also need to be able to be content being a team of one, because even though I have coworkers, it's just a different relationship. Our office, we do staff retreats. We don't, we don't do the things bigger departments do. We don't do staff development things. And so they need to be content being a team of one and figuring out how to meet the relational needs in ways other than sitting around a table with their peers.

Andy Stanley (22:48):

Can I comment on that? Because when I interviewed Carol Toay with CEO of UPS, and she made the comment, she said she'd never been a point leader for organizations. She'd been at Home Depot for years in the C-suite, so she'd been in a large organization, but UPS this first time she's at the top. And she said, I'd always heard that it's lonely at the top. And I remember you and I thinking she was going to say, but that's not true. And she said, it is. It is. And that dynamic for the point leader who there's never equity with the relationships because you're friendly, but you're not actual friends because there's just an inequity because of the position of the relationship and the organization. That same dynamic holds true for the executive assistant.

(23:36):

And this is the point Diane's making about being content with the team of one that she's treated different. I'm treated different. And our sets her up to be more isolated from some of the staff than would normally be the case. Because even though there are other executive assistants and other admin assistants, and even though to some extent their peers, it's a little bit different. It's different. I don't actually have peers in the organization. And so the person in this role does have to be very secure and needs to know that going in that they're going to be treated a little bit differently because of their relationship to the rest of the organization.

Diane Grant (24:19):

That's so true. I have a candy bowl in my office, so people will come in and get candy because sometimes they're afraid to come into the principal's office and I'm content eating lunch at my desk because there's work to do. But I have to make the decision occasionally to go eat in the break room so that I'm interacting. And so people see me

Andy Stanley (24:40):

Accessible

Diane Grant (24:41):

And people know that I'm accessible.

Andy Stanley (24:42):

And when we redid our offices a few years ago, we have basically a double wide opening to our little office suite. There's no door. And this was intentional. It's like we need to create a space visually that communicates what we want communicated. So there there's no door.

Suzy Gray (24:58):

Well, and the other thing, it's beautiful, the space where that double door is, it's so pretty and inviting. I feel like that probably helps. It's not behind the door, not you have to feel like you're interrupting. It's very inviting. Diane, I also just wanted to say one thing that I think you're really good at in the list of what are some things assistance need to do to kind of elevate? I think you are really, really good at saying no. And I mean that in a kind way because you have to say no a lot and you are very good at saying no in a kind way, but being clear.

Andy Stanley (25:32):

And you've experienced this, Susie.

Suzy Gray (25:34):

No, really? I haven't personally, but I've heard she's good at it. No, you've experienced it. You've experienced it.

Andy Stanley (25:39):

Yes.

Suzy Gray (25:41):

Diana and I've worked together for 20 years. I mean once or twice, but you're very good at it.

Diane Grant (25:47):

It goes back to knowing what Andy's priorities are and therefore what is important to have on the calendar. And I just have learned that if I say yes to something we've already determined should be a no, that I'm eliminating something that's a priority on the calendar. So that gives me the confidence to be able to say, no, it's the right thing to do. And I've just learned over time, or I hope I've learned over time, ways to say it kindly say a smile

Suzy Gray (26:05):

You have the emotional intelligence to say it kindly.

(26:17):

Diane Grant

(26:17):

To say it as I tell people, say it with a smile on your face. I mean, I really do think that sometimes when I'm writing an email or whatever, okay, am I smiling in this email or I'll write it, then I'll go back and revise it to make sure I have been kind. And I also try to find ways to say no, but no, Andy can't help you. No, you can't meet with Andy, but here are other options. Someone else in the organization might be able to meet with you or can answer that question for you.

(26:46):

Yeah. Well, you're very good at that. So I think that's another item. So let's shift a little bit and talk about maintaining healthy boundaries in terms of your own identity while being so deeply embedded in someone else's priorities. I imagine that's got to be really hard.

Diane Grant (27:00):

You sent that question to me in advance and I thought about it, and I don't know that I have a good answer for it because I really haven't found it to be hard. And I don't know what that says about me, but I've always been able to compartmentalize. It's just something I can do. So I mean, even when I worked as a nurse, and so that has made it easy in the early days when Andy and Sandra and my husband Keith and I would go to events as attendees, not as staff, I realized early on that I needed to be conscious about my husband and I not sitting with Andy and Sandra because I didn't want a conversation to suddenly transition to work.

Suzy Gray (27:42):

Oh, drift, to work.

Diane Grant (27:42):

To drift to work and then Sandra feel like the outsider because they were there as a couple. She didn't need me talking to Andy about work. Here's another example. When we are in certain scenarios and I'm serving or assisting him, for example, before he speaks in an event and I happen to be there, I try to be really conscious about how much is too little or too much for him. I could take over, but he's 100% capable. I'm not his mother. I think that a lot, not his mother, but if I know things will make him more comfortable and prepared for what he's about to do, then I'm certainly willing to step in and do them. I mean, even little things like do you want a cup of tea? Do you want a snack? But I'm just conscious of what those boundaries need to be, and I'm always willing for him to say, okay, that's enough. I got it.

Andy Stanley (28:35):

And we've had to learn that. And again, that's learning my personality. There are people who do what I do that want to travel with an entourage. They want to show up with their assistant and their assistants assistant and security and friends, and they travel as a pack. I do not like to travel that way. I want be more approachable. And this is not just Diane sometimes in people's efforts to not protect me physically, but protect me from people who want to talk.

Suzy Gray (29:03):

Protect your energy.

Andy Stanley (29:04):

Yeah, the energy. And so we've had to learn, I would rather err on the side of being too accessible than not accessible enough. And so she's learned that she's learned how to be available and helpful and distant,

Diane Grant (29:17):

But always within an eye shot, always with vision. So I can get the look.

Andy Stanley (29:22):

Yes. In fact, Sunday, this is interesting, Diana, I was going to tell you, there was a couple sitting right behind me in the first service, and I'd never seen him there before. And usually it's kind of the same people. So I turned around to talk to him and they made this comment. They said, we're sort of shocked that we're able to talk to you. And I kind of knew what they meant, but I acted dumb like, oh yeah, they said at our other church, our pastor, you can't really ever get to them, and you're just sitting here a normal person. I'm like, well, I'm a normal person. That's a normal person. I didn't say three rows back is a plain closed police officer who's watching our conversation.

Diane Grant (30:04):

And my assistant is over there watching and ready to step in.

Andy Stanley (30:06):

But the point was, that's very important to me that there's not a sense of he's being trailed by a posse. So again, we had to figure that out because Diane is very attentive to those things that can get weird quick when you do what I do.

Suzy Gray (30:22):

So in Andy in tense seasons, like in seasons that are really busy or there's a lot of pressure, what have you had to learn about yourself in protecting the relationship with Diane?

Andy Stanley (30:33):

Well, let me answer that question in the context of just personality and temperament and Enneagram, because people respond to pressure and stress differently. And my Enneagram one inner critic that Ian Crom reminded me of when I first met him, the way it works for me is I tend to blame myself pretty much for everything. But what happens is when I'm frustrated with myself, I know that can spill out on people around me. And even when it's happening, I know this is not them. This is me. So that's this internal cycle I have. And I know for a fact that Diane has felt that at times when I'm frustrated with myself, when I didn't do a good job at something and I'm kind of beating myself up or I am not as prepared as I should be, and I'm carrying that internal frustration. And because she's so close and because she's so attentive, I know that spills out from time to time and she just deals with it so well, that's kind of a dynamic. And again, because of age and maturity, hopefully it's gotten better through the years, but that's the thing that kind of sits there that we have to navigate sometimes

(31:46):

Or she has to navigate. Maybe you should have Diane on the Reverb podcast.

Suzy Gray (31:53):

Yes, we'll talk about Andy

Andy Stanley (31:54):

And instead of us talking about her.

Suzy Gray (31:57):

Well, Diane, what are your thoughts on that? When in those moments that are tense or stressful or pressure, how do you navigate that knowing Andy is an Enneagram one with the inner critic, and how do you, being an Enneagram one yourself.

Diane Grant (32:11):

Well, I have decided that having learned over time, observing that in Andy, over time, I've decided that I'm going to assume it's not something I've done or it's not my fault. And that's just the posture I have, which may or may not be healthy. I don't know.

Andy Stanley (32:29):

No, it is. Because if either of us take things too personally, and I think this goes back to the boundaries question, that there's emotional boundaries.

(32:39):

Some point, we all have to decide this is a job, we're friendly and we're friends, but it's a job. And the job puts a layer of pressure and expectation on the relationship. And this is true for everybody listening, that's not unique, but we recognize that. And I think that's kind of what Diana's saying. She's able to step back and go, okay,

Diane Grant (33:00):

What's going on?

Andy Stanley (33:01):

Yeah,

Diane Grant (33:02):

What's going on? And assume that if it is something related to me that he'll speak up and say, Hey, we need to talk about this. And one of the things I think that has protected that over the years is we meet weekly. And he is so generous in protecting that time and having that meeting with me, even though I know it is not his favorite meeting.

Andy Stanley (33:25):

Or yours, let's be honest.

Diane Grant (33:28):

No, it is mine. I get answers. Turn. She gets her answers. I can keep moving. I'm motivated by progress. Let's keep moving. So if there's anything that does need to be discussed, we're only seven days out at the most from having the conversation. And it's usually not a personal thing. It's usually something external. Exactly. And I also know I'm, hopefully, I'm self-aware enough to know that if he's frustrated with me, it's generally because I went too fast or too far or the wrong direction. And so in our meeting, he can say, oh, no, no, let's back up. Let's not do that yet.

Suzy Gray (34:08):

Recalibrate it.

Diane Grant (34:08):

Recalibrate. I wish you'd handle that differently.

Andy Stanley (34:12):

Yeah. Well, this is something that I've had to learn working with both of you with Diane and Susie, that my best gift to both of you is to make a decision because you're both progress oriented. And when my hesitation to decide, or I don't want to put enough thought and into something to decide right now, I have learned it is almost better to make a bad decision and keep the two of you moving forward than to say, let me think about it. I got to think about that. I can consider it. And so through the years, I have tried to be so much better at just decide so they can move forward, decide so they can move forward. Because again, putting myself in your place, that would be very frustrating because both of you have things you want to get done and serving the organization.

(34:56):

So I think, in fact, Diane, you and I have talked about this from time to time, pastors of large churches will either send their admin assistants to come meet with you, or they will call and say, can I talk to you about how you do this? Or I think in some cases it was people who were taking the job that roll on for the very first time, and they thought, oh, what can I learn? And I'll let you talk about this. But I think one of the things you've talked to them about, or one of the frustrations they've expressed is I can't get the time I need and I can't get the decisions I need so I can move forward. Am I remembering that correctly?

Diane Grant (35:29):

You are totally correct. And it's a little frustrating sometimes for me on figuring out how to advise them, because my advice is I need to have a conversation with your boss. And so figuring out with them how to go back and lead up basically how to have the conversation with their leader to say, here's what you can do to help me be more effective in serving you. Wow. And it always goes back to, first of all, what are your priorities? So therefore, what do you want me to do? And then empowering me to do it

Andy Stanley (36:06):

And empowering the assistant to ensure that the leader stays on track with what they have said is most important.

Diane Grant (36:15):

Yes. And that's important because there are times that we've talked about things and I'm thinking, oh wait, that's not something that would be a priority based on what I know is going on. And so I've just learned to say that. And there are times you'll say, oh, you're right. Let's say no. Or you'll say, I know it's not, but in this instance, I want to do it anyway.

Andy Stanley (36:34):

This is somebody I need to meet with that I may not normally meet with or something

Diane Grant (36:38):

Like that. Exactly. But we've had the conversation.

Andy Stanley (36:39):

Yeah. Yeah.

Suzy Gray (36:40):

So Andy, with that in mind, if a leader wants to attract and retain a world-class executive assistant like Diane, what do they need to do?

Andy Stanley (36:46):

Yeah. Well, I don't know if this is great advice, but the first thing that came to mind when you sent me this question was don't interview people who have an admin assistant profile. Again, this isn't a secretary. This isn't somebody who's waiting to be handed a list of things to do that's just going to report back. You want somebody who again, is going to be more of a partner in helping you accomplish what you want accomplished. I think there's an educational factor. I think one of the greatest assets Diane brought to this job was her marketplace experience.

(37:21):

She didn't come out of a ministry background and she wasn't an admin assistant before. She was somebody who had real responsibility, whose income depended on her ability to do her job well. And so that kind of maturity and real world experience, bringing that into our office, I don't know how to put a value on that. So when you think about who you want to bring in, if you're an executive, especially in a medium sized company or a large company, you need to be looking for somebody who could function in some ways as an executive in a company, because that's what they're going to do. They have executive level responsibility. The communication skills are important, their attention to detail, they don't necessarily need to be a perfectionist, but if they're not a perfectionist, they need to have the maturity to be able to hand things off for other people to look at before they go out of the office to make sure they're representing well. So you're not looking for an assistant in a traditional way. You're looking for a partner, and that's the language Diane used earlier.

(38:20):

And that's a special kind of person. Again, there are people who have done this in the past, and so if they've been successful in that role somewhere else, of course that's an advantage. And the other thing I wrote in my notes to answer this question, you need someone who so mature and so secure that they are, as Diane said, willing to speak up, willing to warn you. And you need somebody who is willing to quit rather than being mistreated. You need somebody who is so secure that's like they would say to you, you know what? No one talks to me that way. No one treats me that way. This has to change. Or I'm out. And Diane would do that, right? And so again, and because we've all seen that happen in

Suzy Gray (39:05):

Go really bad

Andy Stanley (39:05):

Corporate space, you just don't put up with that. And because Diane is that way, and we haven't talked about this, Diane is also sensitive to how other people in her position are treated in this organization and she is willing to speak up because she won't put up with it, and she doesn't want them to feel like they need to put up with it. And we've not had much of that fortunately. But over the course of 30 years, she's had to have some conversations with some executive level people in our organization to say, I need to talk to you about the way you talk to or treat again. She would call me on it, and she has the security to call others on it. And I think if we became an organization that devolved into that kind of mistreatment, she would quit in a heartbeat. She would not put up with it. That's a strength of character that she brings. It makes our whole organization better.

Suzy Gray (40:01):

Really the key for a leader is to think about those things on the front end of that hiring to make sure they're hiring for that type

Andy Stanley (40:07):

Yeah

Suzy Gray (40:08):

of partnership.

Andy Stanley (40:08):

Yeah, it's not just a skillset, again, at the executive level, it's not just a skillset. It is holistic.

Suzy Gray (40:16):

The whole package.

Andy Stanley (40:16):

Yeah, the whole package. Yeah.

Suzy Gray (40:17):

So as we wrap up today's podcast, Andy, you and I have talked before about once in this job descriptions and the importance of those in the organization. I would love to wrap our time talking about Diane's one sentence job description and how you guys develop that together.

Andy Stanley (40:33):

Well, I'll start, but I'll let you give your version. So years ago, first we called them one sentence job descriptions, but I didn't like job. So it's one sentence, responsibility descriptions. We want to hire people that carry responsibility, not just do a job. So she was helping me think through at every level in the organization what these would look like for the different positions. And instead of waiting for me to write hers, she went ahead and wrote hers herself. And

Suzy Gray (41:01):

That checks out.

Andy Stanley (41:02):

No. Well, but see, that's a good example of what we're talking about, and it was so good. So I'll let you talk about your one sentence responsibility description, and then I'll tell the story about the gift that I was asked to give you

Diane Grant (41:17):

As we were thinking through one sentence responsibility descriptions for the organization. I of course started thinking about my role and I just started pondering, okay, what is it really that I do that I think adds the most value to Andy? And so I wrote down what I think I did, and then I gave it to Andy and said, okay, here's what I think I do. Is this what you want me to be doing?

Andy Stanley (41:39):

Yeah. Because the idea of a coincidence responsibility description is if all else fails or if you get confused, you go back to this

Suzy Gray (41:45):

In case of emergency brake glass, do this.

Andy Stanley (41:47):

Yeah, you're doing 10 things, but there's one thing that's no thing. The thing. So go ahead. Yeah.

Diane Grant (41:52):

So what I realized and wrote down that I thought my one sentence responsibility description was, is I keep Andy's path clear of non-essential tasks and decisions so that he can focus on doing what only he can do.

Andy Stanley (42:06):

Isn't that good? Say it one more time. It's so good.

Diane Grant (42:08):

I keep Andy's path clear of non-essential tasks and decisions so that he can do what only he can do.

Andy Stanley (42:16):

So when I read that, I'm like, that's it. The only do what only he can do are things we talk about.

Diane Grant (42:23):

There's always so much to do. There's always more to do than there's time to do. And in our organization, I've always had things to do outside of the pastor's office or outside of directly assisting Andy. But the one sentence job description helps me know what my priority is when there's too much to do. My priority is am I assisting Andy? Am I keeping his path clear? And that gives me permission to say no to other things, or that gives me permission to say, not now to other things. And it is also a filter for me to evaluate what comes across our desk for him. Is this an essential task or decision for him? And if it's not an essential task or decision for him based on what he's already decided his priorities are, then it's mine to handle.

Andy Stanley (43:09):

And from time to time, she will sense me reaching out to take something and she'll say, no, no, no, no. Let me,

Diane Grant (43:16):

I got that. I got that. I got that. You can have it if you want it.

Andy Stanley (43:18):

yeah

Diane Grant (43:18):

Mean, it's your mail came address to you, but I can handle it.

Andy Stanley (43:24):

Yeah. And again, and I've talked about this before years ago when we first started with this, my tendency is to not ask anyone to do for me something that I don't want to do. I assume if I don't want to do it, you don't want to do it. Nobody wants to do, and I don't want to be the nice guy, so I'll do this awful thing. And I realized Diane doesn't mind doing the things that I don't want to do, and she's better at them anyway. And every once in a while, we'll be going through all the stuff and I'll just say, Diane, I would hate your job. And she says, and I would hate yours.

Diane Grant (43:59):

So we're even.

Andy Stanley (44:01):

Okay. So real quick. So I don't know, A year ago, I forget, our staff culture team came to some of the executives in our organization and said, we want to give your admin assistants and your executive assistants a gift that reflects your appreciation for what they do for you. And we want you to come up with an item that represents their value add to you. And when they gave me that assignment, the first thing that came to my mind was the most inelegant,

(44:35):

Potentially offensive item. And so I kept thinking, that can't be it. So finally I said to them, okay, I know this is terrible, but you know that thing that they put on the front of, they used to put on the front of locomotives to scoop cattle off the track as the trains going through the wilderness. It's traditionally called a cow catcher, because in the early days, that's what it was to get cows off the railroad track. I said, that's kind of what Diane does. She just keeps my path clear. I said, but I don't know how that's going to go, Diane, you remind me of a cow catcher, Diane. Anyway, so they thought that was kind of funny. And I thought, I don't know where you're going to get one. I don't. Anyway, so fortunately they said, okay, if that's what it is, and they found this print of this old locomotive on a track with the big old wide cow catcher on the front. And so I presented it to Diane and she wasn't offended, and it's hanging in her office.

Suzy Gray (45:40):

It said you're my cow catcher.

Andy Stanley (45:43):

You are my cow catcher! You keep the track.

Suzy Gray (45:45):

It's what I aspire to be, a cow catcher.

Andy Stanley (45:48):

Anyway.

Suzy Gray (45:49):

Well, that's amazing.

Andy Stanley (45:51):

So Diane, thank you. And as Suzy said, that's about all the time we have for today, and this was enjoyable. I actually learned a few things. I need to go back and write down some notes. Anyway, thanks for listening. We do have one request, and that is that you would subscribe to the podcast and by subscribing you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep improving and bringing you great guests and great content to help you as a leader go further faster. Also, be sure to visit the Andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary of this discussion, plus questions for reflection or even group discussion. And join us next week for our reverb episode where either Susie and I will talk about Diane behind her back, or perhaps Susie and Diane will talk about me behind mine. Either way, it'll be great. You won't want to miss it. Once again, thanks for joining us on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.