FROM THE VAULT—Two Questions to Grow your Business with Jeff Henderson, Part 2 Transcript

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Andy Stanley (00:02):

Hey everybody. Welcome back to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy and I'm so excited today because my friend Jeff Anderson is back in the studio to continue our conversation on the topic that every leader is interested in. Growth, selling more of what you sell, whether it's goods or services and expanding your presence in the marketplace. Hey Jeff, thanks for coming back.

Jeff Henderson (00:25):

Thanks for having me back.

Andy Stanley (00:26):

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Jeff's an extraordinary leader. Before he came into the nonprofit world, he spent several years in the marketplace with Chick-fil-A, The Atlanta Braves, and Callaway Gardens. So he's had success in both the profit and nonprofit world. And a few years ago, he was encouraged by several business leaders to document his experience and he has. He's written a book entitled Know What You're For, Know What You For, a growth strategy for work and even better strategy for life. So Jeff, welcome back and I'm looking forward to continuing this conversation. But if you would, catch our podcast listeners up a little bit on what we talked about last time and then we will forge ahead.

Jeff Henderson (01:03):

Well, it's like what you said, Andy. We're talking about growth today and I was really blessed, have been blessed to work just for the last 20 years with two thriving organizations, Chick-fil-A, $10 billion in sales and Northpoint Ministries. And I thought-

Andy Stanley (01:15):

Who hasn't sold a thing?

Jeff Henderson (01:17):

That's right. But here we are.

Andy Stanley (01:19):

Yeah. We give ideas away.

Jeff Henderson (01:21):

That's right. Giving it away today.

Andy Stanley (01:24):

Yeah, there you go.

Jeff Henderson (01:24):

But I was encouraged by a mentor that said, "Hey, this wasn't just a blessing. This was a stewardship responsibility. What did you learn from Chick-fil-A and Northpoint about growth?" There's a lot of other things, but specifically about growth. I was really challenged by that, and there's a lot we could say, but I really boiled it down to the two questions we talked about at last month's podcast, which is question number one, what do you want to be known for? What do you want your nonprofit to be known for? What do you want your business to be known for? What do you want, in our case, a church to be known for? And then question number two is, what are you known for? As we said last month, question number one is ours to answer as organizational leaders. Question number two is the customer's question. But when those two questions have the same answer, when what you want to be known for is what the customers are experiencing and it's exactly what you're known for, then you win the battleground known as the heart of the customer.

(02:18):

And that's where I think the growth game is going when you can shrink the gap between those two questions. So we talked about the gap last month. We talked about the power of those two questions. And then this month we're talking about how do you shrink the gap?

Andy Stanley (02:30):

Yeah. And that's a very compelling question. How do you shrink that gap? The gap between what I want to be known for or what we want to be known for and what we're actually known for. We are actually in the process at the campus I lead right now of employing a research firm to do some research in this community around that very question, what are we actually known for? Because we think we know, and there's tons of anecdotal evidence. And of course, our raving fans answer that question correctly. But in terms of the community that knows we are here but is not a part of what we do, what are we known for? And is it positive or negative? And that's one of those, as we mentioned last time, that's one of those rocks you need to pick up and look and see what's underneath.

(03:08):

You may be pleasantly surprised or you may be unpleasantly depressed, but what you don't know can hurt you. And so sometimes you've got to be curious enough and sometimes you got to spend some money to find out. So one more thing about last month's conversation, you mentioned four groups that every organization should be for. Would you just rehearse those four one more time and then we'll move ahead?

Jeff Henderson (03:29):

Absolutely. And for those of you that did your homework, kudos to you. And we gave you some homework examples that you could actually leverage to shrink the gap between those two questions. But ultimately how you shrink the gap is you create an organization that has a heart for four groups of people. The customer, you need to be for the customer, you need to be for your team, however that looks. For those of you in the nonprofit world, this could be volunteers or donors. For the community, the larger community we talked about last month that if your goal is just to stay in business, you want. You have to have a more compelling purpose than just that. And then ultimately for you. And what this does, Andy, being for these four groups of people, it allows you to be more personable and the more personable you are, the more remarkable you will be.

(04:16):

What that word remarkable means is people talk about your organization and they say, "You've got to go there." They do actually have the best hotdog in town and they are your vision carriers. And when you shrink the gap between these two questions, what happens is you create more vision carriers and the more vision carriers you have, the more vision casters you have. Wow. And so that's what this understanding of the, and we'll talk about the handles and some very specific examples of this, but that's the power of being for these four groups of people. They experience your organization in a very personable, compelling way, and they tell their friends about it.

Andy Stanley (04:53):

And shrinking that gap is the key. That's the goal.

Jeff Henderson (04:55):

Absolutely.

Andy Stanley (04:55):

And as we said last time, oftentimes organizations, especially larger organizations, are looking for that one thing that can sort of be the rallying cry and it's difficult to find. And the larger and the more complex an organization becomes, the more difficult it is to do that. But to get an organization around this problem, how can we close the gap between what we want to be known for and what we're known for? That's definitely a rallying cry.

Jeff Henderson (05:17):

And you've talked so much about this, but courage, it's going to pull that rock up, it's going to require courage. But here's the reality, if we don't pull the rock up, the information is still there.

Andy Stanley (05:29):

We're still known for that regardless.

Jeff Henderson (05:31):

And so we don't know it.

(05:33):

And so we, as leaders, ironically, we're the only ones that don't know it. But what you're looking for is you're looking for themes. You're going to get your feelings hurt. Absolutely. But there may be some comments that you have to disregard if there's not a theme to it. Like what you'll discover is you're going to look for themes in terms of what are we known for. There may be some, to your point, the raving fans and there may be some people that aren't, but what we're looking for are those themes that we can act on.

Andy Stanley (06:01):

Yep. So Jeff, let's dive into some examples. And in the book, you differentiate between customer service and customer engagement. And I thought this was so intriguing and so insightful. So talk a little bit about that.

Jeff Henderson (06:13):

Sure. Customer service is reactive. So if I could pick on my former world, my fries were cold. Oh, I'm sorry about that. Here's a new batch of fries.

Andy Stanley (06:21):

So that's customer service.

Jeff Henderson (06:22):

That's customer service. It's reacting to what happened. Customer engagement is proactively engaging with the customer. The reason this is important is because it puts, as we talked about in last month's podcast, it puts the customer on the field and they're the ones that are the hero and the business is cheering them on. And so I believe that where the future, and when I say future, I mean, I think the future is here. Thriving organizations will be more concerned with becoming a fan of their customer and community instead of trying to get the customer to become a fan of the business. So let me say that again. Thriving organizations will be more concerned with becoming a fan of their customer and community instead of trying to get the customer to become a fan of the business. Wow. And when you look at this statement and look at a lot of marketing advertising, it runs contrary to that.

(07:11):

It's, "Hey, we're the most important entity here. Look at us. Look at us. Look at us." I think that's old school marketing that is going away. And again, this isn't saying that we're not interested in growth. This is all about growth, but customer engagement is proactively engaging with the customer and putting the spotlight on them and taking the spotlight off the organization. And there's some very specific ways that you can do that.

Andy Stanley (07:34):

Yeah, in fact, in the book, you make the point that most organizations, and this was a little bit surprising, you felt like they aren't doing social media and yet almost every company has a Twitter or Facebook or Instagram account. So what do you mean by that?

Jeff Henderson (07:49):

Most, well, maybe I should say ...

Andy Stanley (07:52):

They have a social media presence, but they're not doing proactively, or as you talk about in customer, they're not leveraging social media for customer engagement.

Jeff Henderson (08:01):

Right. Yeah. From my experience, what many organizations are doing, they are doing digital media, they're not doing social media. Most companies forget the social in social media. So basically it is a digital electronic ad. Wow. And I am not suggesting that that's wrong. I'm not suggesting that you should miss it. It's just a missed opportunity. It's a missed opportunity because really the power in social media, and again, this isn't necessarily a social media conversation as much as is putting the spotlight on the customer and engaging with them. The power in social media is the social part. And many organizations just do the media. And you know why, Andy? It's because the spotlight's on the organization.

Andy Stanley (08:43):

About, I don't know, several months ago, and you can pinpoint the time for this, you came to our staff meeting and you told us this extraordinary story about taking one of your kids to a concert you had not planned on going to that turned into this ... I mean, it was kind of like the light bulbs came on all around the room as it related to this very issue of, are we using social media like a billboard like no one needs another billboard or are we actually using it to engage? So can you tell that story?

Jeff Henderson (09:08):

Absolutely. My daughter, Jesse, is a college student. She's a big fan of the musical duo, Johnny Swim. At this point, I had never heard of Johnny Swim. I thought they were like an Olympic swimmer or something, but Jesse was a big fan. So she was going back to college and Wendy said, "Hey, they're coming in town. Why don't we buy tickets and let's surprise Jesse before she goes back to college. Love it. " She said, "For an extra $50, we have four people in our family. For an extra $50 a ticket, we can get backstage passes." Well, I'm not good at math, but 50 times four, I'm told it's $200. We're already paying a lot for college, right? So I said, "I don't think we want to do the backstage passes." So at this time, my daughter was interning with an organization and they featured her on their Instagram page and they said, "This is Jesse Henderson.

(09:51):

She likes this food. She likes this. And she's obsessed with Johnny Swim." So they tagged Johnny Swim. Well, a few hours after this, my phone starts blowing up with our little family text thread and my daughter says, OMG, which she's a preacher's kid, which stands for, oh my gosh. And she took a screenshot. And so the picture was that Johnny Swim had commented back to her and said, "We're obsessed with you too, Jesse. We love you too." Well, her phone starts blowing up. All her friends are saying, "Did you see Johnny Swim talk to you? Did you see Johnny Swim talk to you? " Well, guess what happened? We bought the backstage passes. So here's my point-

Andy Stanley (10:30):

They sqeezed $200 out of you.

Jeff Henderson (10:31):

With one single- nothing.

Andy Stanley (10:34):

Yeah, cost them nothing. No Billboards.

Jeff Henderson (10:35):

With one single click of a button. Now, here's the power of this. I get pushback on this from time to time when people say, "Jeff, I can't do this for everyone." That's when I say, "Well, my favorite pastor, Andy Stanley says, do for one what you wish you could do for everyone." Johnny Swim can't talk to everybody. They can talk to a few people. But guess what's happened in this moment? We're experiencing it right now. I am telling some of your listeners who've never heard of Johnny Swim, guess what I'm now doing? I'm a vision carrier and now I am promoting Johnny Swim on your podcast.

Andy Stanley (11:08):

And it cost them how much?

Jeff Henderson (11:09):

Zero. Zero.

(11:10):

And they're still not paying me anything and there are pictures in the book. So my point is somebody, and I think this is really important in terms of customer engagement versus customer service. Customer service is, again, here's our product, here's our product, here's our product. We need to do that. Does Johnny Swim need to tell us when their new CD comes out? Yes. Did they need to tell us about their tour? Yes. But what they did is they went off of their platform and they broke through an invisible barrier. Most brands don't break through. They went off of their platform on social media and went to someone else's and engaged with my daughter there and they made her day. And you know what they did? They won the battleground of my daughter's heart and they won the battleground of her dad's heart. So that's the power.

(11:55):

That's what they did. And this example happens time and time again. And I don't play golf anymore. I wasn't very good at it. So my hobby now is going on to brands, Instagram posts and seeing when they post something, seeing if they ever comment back to their customers. And you would be shocked how many organizations don't ever comment back. It's like if we were to walk into a restaurant and ask the staff person a question and then the staff person turns around and doesn't say anything and just leaves, that's what's happening in social media. So when I say that most organizations, or I should say many organizations aren't doing social media, it's because they're forgetting the social and the social media part. And the reason, Andy, is because the spotlight is on the business.

Andy Stanley (12:40):

And when you shared that story in our staff meeting, several of us immediately began going into our social media feeds and responding to replies and responding to responses. It just had never crossed our mind. It's a simple discipline that every single podcast listener could do. If you just did it once a day, you just started one conversation or you responded to one comment. Again, you never know what it's going to lead to. And it's such a simple thing to do.

Jeff Henderson (13:05):

Well, you helped free me from the perfection of trying to have to respond to everybody, but do for one what you wish you could do for everyone. A quick example for our church, we began our staff meetings. We go to Instagram and we search forgwinnet and we just like and comment on the posts. And we are, another lesson I learned from you, we're trying to reward the behavior we want repeated with people sharing our vision and mission to our community. So that's a way I've had people tell me, I can tell it's Gwinnett Church staffing how my Instagram post is blowing up. But we have had so many comments of people who've said, "Wow, this big church noticed me. " And it's really an important thing. It's one of those customer engagement, "Hey, we see you. Can't do it for everybody, but you can do it for a few."

Andy Stanley (13:53):

Yep. That's so powerful. My experience with that has been primarily through Twitter. I have so many conversations with people who don't think that I know that they exist, especially if they follow me on Twitter and I can direct message them back. And the initial response is always, "Is this really Andy Stanley?" I mean, almost all of them start with...

Jeff Henderson (14:13):

Right.

Andy Stanley (14:14):

"Is this a robot? Is this somebody working for you? " I'm like, "No, this is really me. I want to send you some free stuff." And suddenly something that's very impersonal becomes extremely personal and there's been some ... And again, it's fun. It doesn't take much time. But again, I know you keep giving me credit, but I've told you before, I've learned so much of this from you. And the whole idea of moving from social media as a billboard to social media as a conversation, it really does break through that barrier and it becomes conversational. And suddenly you feel like you know Johnny Swim a little bit. Absolutely. Absolutely. But you feel like you do. Right. Okay. Sorry, we got to move on. So let's talk about the danger of something that you call insider itis and we've kind of touched on the idea, but I love that terminology and it should scare all of us.

(14:58):

What is that?

Jeff Henderson (14:59):

It's seeing the organization from behind the counter instead of in front of it. So when I would work with Chick-fil-A operators, I would go in and at lunchtime say, "Hey, let's stand in front of the counter." And they would say, "No, no, you don't understand the business, Jeff. This is the busiest time of the day." Exactly. That's why you need to see it from this standpoint. And I've trained my kids to do this. I will walk up to somewhere and I go, "What's wrong with the front part of the counter?" And it just shows me that no one is standing back here behind in front of the counter. Now, I have that challenge in my own life. When I get to church on Sunday mornings, I get there early and I have no parking problems. Everything's quiet and nice and there's no check-in lines. So I've seen the organization in a non-realistic way.

Andy Stanley (15:48):

You're not seeing it like the customer?

Jeff Henderson (15:49):

No, because I'm actually behind the counter. So what we've got to do is we've got to make sure that we are having conversations and engaging with customers so that they can tell us what they are seeing in front of the counter.

Andy Stanley (16:02):

And in our organization, we've learned that we cannot just suggest that or teach that or even point to the value of that. We have to schedule people who are not normally in those positions into those positions because there are people in every organization who their job is to be on the frontline, but the folks like us who don't have to be on the front line, if it's not intentional, and in some cases, if it doesn't become even a small slice of someone's job description, they will never experience it because there's other things to do. But that frontline experience, and again, to your point, experiencing what the customer experience is huge.

Jeff Henderson (16:38):

And I remember when I was at Buckhead Church, this is easier for me than you because I don't have to preach every Sunday, but there were Sundays where I asked Wendy, "Let's leave at about 10:40."

Andy Stanley (16:49):

Let's get into fray.

Jeff Henderson (16:54):

But it's so good because then you're asking yourself, "Would I do this every Sunday?" And then you just see it differently. It's much like when you bring a guest to, let's say you bring a guest to a restaurant that you really love, you see it from a different perspective. Absolutely. That's seeing it from the customer's perspective and really highlighting and engaging with them there.

Andy Stanley (17:11):

One of the other things that you wrote, and you've talked about the four groups that we need to be for, you said that being for the team, and this was a little surprising, being for the team is actually more important than being for the customer. And by team, you mean the staff team.

Jeff Henderson (17:26):

Right.

Andy Stanley (17:27):

So I thought it was customer first, customer first, customer first. This seems to run contrary to that.

Jeff Henderson (17:32):

Here's why that's true, I believe. The customer is eventually treated like the team is treated. It's going to flow right to the customer. So let's go back to the front counter illustration. When I walk up to a front counter, I can tell exactly how that person is being treated because it's flowing right to me. If there's no eye contact, if they don't look like they care that I'm there, if I'm bothered to them, then in many respects, that's how they're being treated. That's the vision that's being cast for them. When I walk up to the front counter and I get so glad you're here, eye contact, warmth and smiles, that's how they're being treated. And so you can't disconnect. We got great customer strategy if you have a dysfunctional staff team structure. It's going to eventually flow to the customer.

Andy Stanley (18:18):

So for the customer, for the team, and before we get to for the community, Jeff, in the book, and I know we don't have time to talk about this, you include this five step process for creating a for the team culture that's extraordinary. And when I read it, I immediately thought about what you've actually done on all of your staff teams. So this isn't theory, this is what you've done. It's super helpful. And it could probably be its own podcast. It's so good. But anyway, moving along. Number three, let's talk about being for the community.

Jeff Henderson (18:46):

I think this is the most exciting news of all, Andy, because this is what I truly believe, and I think research is playing this out. In today's world, doing good is good for business. Doing good is good for business. I love it. And I love this because as I mentioned, there's data that's proving this out. There's an organization called the Havis Group, and every year they release the results of a survey they call meaningful brands. What they're proving is that the more meaningful an organization is, the greater success they will have to their bottom line. So when you define who and what you're for and you deliver on that, you become meaningful in their terminology. So here's some data points that are actually proving this out in their most recent research. They discovered that 75% of customers expect brands to contribute to their wellbeing.

Andy Stanley (19:29):

Their wellbeing.

Jeff Henderson (19:30):

Their wellbeing.

Andy Stanley (19:32):

So this isn't just health food and vitamins. This is everybody.

Jeff Henderson (19:35):

What are you doing for the world? Wow. What are you doing out there? Only 24% believe this is happening. That's alarming. But if I'm a business leader, I'm-

Andy Stanley (19:45):

But that;s an opportunity is what that is!

Jeff Henderson (19:46):

Absolutely. I look at this and think when we clarify what we want to be known for, then we get to have a competitive advantage. We get to connect with the 75% that expect us to do this. Here's the most alarming part of the research to me. Over 74% of customers wouldn't care if the brands they use disappear.

Andy Stanley (20:06):

What?

Jeff Henderson (20:07):

Which is crazy. But I think the reason for that, Andy, is they don't believe the brands care for them.

Andy Stanley (20:14):

They'll ust go find another brand.

Jeff Henderson (20:16):

That's why when you play the price game that we talked about in last month's podcast, it's a dangerous slope, especially regarding this resource.

Andy Stanley (20:25):

Yeah, if it's just about margin, that's just an extraordinary thought.

Jeff Henderson (20:29):

But what this research is saying is once you clarify what you want to be known for and you deliver it, customers will respond. For me, this is an opportunity for business leaders to rise up and go, "This is a competitive advantage." Doing good is good for business. I'll give you a real quick example. In the early days of our church, I know this is more of a nonprofit example, but I said in the very early days of our church, if Gwinnett Church ever decided to close down, I would want the school principals and the mayors of our county and the business leaders and the parents to come knocking on our door and protest and say, "You can't close down. We need you in this community." Wow. I said, "That's what the kind of church we want to be. " But if you could think like that as a for- profit leader and you combine purpose and profit that we talked about in last month's podcast, that's a powerful, compelling combination of purpose and profit.

Andy Stanley (21:21):

That's so good. We could talk about that one idea all day long, especially what we've seen in terms of the influence we've had as a community of churches in our communities. In fact, just to brag on you, when you went out to Gwinnett County to first launch Gwinnett Church, one of the things that Jeff's team did is they went to the best nonprofits in Gwinnett County and said, "How can we help?" Even before we had property in a building, you went to the organizations that were making a difference in the community and said, "Hey, we're coming and this isn't just about us. We are for Gwinnett and we want to be for you. And consequently, you are a good neighbor even before we were in the neighborhood." And that's something every organization can do.

Jeff Henderson (21:58):

Well, I appreciate that. I actually learned that from you, but thank you.

Andy Stanley (22:01):

Well, no, but you guys did it in such an amazing way and such a proactive way. So we've talked about being for the customer, for the team, for the community. Let's wrap up by talking about being for you.

Jeff Henderson (22:13):

Yes, this might seem a little counterintuitive talking about being for these three groups of people and now we're talking about being for you, but it's really important because the best gift that you can give to your organization is an inspired, healthy, the best version of you. And one of the ways you do that is to remain inspired. And so one of the questions I would have for your listeners, Andy, is how inspired are you right now? It's one thing to get inspired, that's important. The bigger challenge is to remain inspired over time. And so there's a lot of strategies that we give you in the book, but I think the most important strategy for this is to actually take these two questions and apply them personally. For example, what do I want to be known for in my life as a person and what am I known for?

(22:57):

So if we're having a conversation and I tell you

Andy Stanley (22:59):

You have to have a pretty strong self-esteem to start asking that question. But again, you have been asking a version of that question for years. Go ahead, I interrupted.

Jeff Henderson (23:08):

Well, I think if I'm here saying, "Andy, I want to be a great husband and I want to be a great dad and I want to be a great this. " Ultimately, you know how you have to go to. You got to go to Wendy, you got to go to Jesse, you got to go to Cole, you got to come over to Gwinnett Church and go, "Hey, Jeff says he wants to be a great leader. How's he doing?" So it's the question, what do I want to be known for? It's really important to clarify that as an individual. "What am I known for? "And then you have to go and ask the people in our lives. So that's why the subtitle of the book is A Growth Strategy for Work, but an even better strategy for life. I think these two questions are actually better for life than they are for organizations.

(23:44):

It does require courage. It does require that. But just like as you were talking about Andy, with this squiggly line, there's squiggly lines in our personal life and there's a gap in what I want to be known for and what I am known for, but every day I get an opportunity to shrink the gap. And so that's why I feel like if you can solve this issue, it'll flow to the other three. And maybe for your listeners, maybe the best thing they need to do is to start with this question personally so that then they can impact the other three.

Andy Stanley (24:15):

Yeah. Years ago, I heard you talking to some leaders and you challenged us to ask some key people in our lives this question, and it goes right to the heart of what you're talking about. And the question was, what's it like to be on the other side of me? What's it like to be on the other side of me? And you could feel the fear in the room. Really, do I really want to ask that question? But it's such a powerful question because it's how we discover what it's like to be on the other side of us. And again, it's going to give us insight to help us close the gap between what do I want to be known for? What kind of person do I want to be and how am I actually perceived?

Jeff Henderson (24:52):

The mistake I made was preaching on that question. Now I don't even have to ask it. People just say, Hey, let me tell you what's the last ... You asked it once. So let me answer that question for you now.

Andy Stanley (25:01):

I know. I've got plenty of information. Yeah. So let's go back to where this conversation began, Jeff. We began this conversation by saying this is a book and this is a conversation about growth. So again, tie all this back to that initial big idea because again, as a leader, that's something we're all interested in.

Jeff Henderson (25:18):

Absolutely. When an organization is for these four groups of people, they're genuinely for them, these four groups will return the favor and become what I call vision carriers. They take your vision and they say," Hey, have you ever heard of this musical duo called Johnny Swim? "And the more vision carriers you have like that, the more vision casters you have. And the more vision casters you have, they will grow your organization because when customers grow your business, it's the healthiest form of growth that there is. It's not artificial, it's real life growth. So that's why I think these two questions and then being for these four groups of people are really important. And for business leaders, again, I think this is such an exciting time because doing good is good for business.

Andy Stanley (26:03):

Well, Jeff, this has been so helpful. And for those of you who did not hear last month's podcast, please go back and check that out. But in the meantime, make sure that you check out Jeff's book, Know What You Are For. Know what you are for. You can find it wherever find books are sold. And Jeff, if somebody wants to get in touch with you and invite you to speak at a leaders for their leadership team or something they're doing for leaders, how can they get in touch with you?

Jeff Henderson (26:23):

I would love that, Andy. They can just go to jeffhenderson.com and they email me directly there and I will respond personally.

Andy Stanley (26:30):

Yes, you better now, right?

Jeff Henderson (26:31):

That's right.

Andy Stanley (26:32):

Hey, in addition to that, make sure you visit andystanley.com where you can download the Leadership Podcast application guide to go with today's content and you can find Jeff's contact information there as well. As always, thanks for listening. We will see you right back here next time for another episode of the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.