REVERB 32: The Power of Joy in Leadership Transcript

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Suzy Gray (00:03):

Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast Reverb, a conversation designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging deeper into this month's topic. I'm your host, Suzy Gray. Last week, Andy sat down with Kate Bowler to talk about joy and the role it plays in a healthy workplace. And today we're leaning further into that topic because while joy can sound like a soft topic, a growing body of research suggests that it's tied to things that we all care about, like resilience, engagement, collaboration, innovation, and trust. In fact, Andy, I was actually reading an article from Entrepreneur that put it this way that really stuck out with me. It said, "The true power of joy is that it reminds leaders and teams that even in chaos, goodness is possible. Joy reorients us toward kindness, integrity, and mutual respect." It actually goes on to say, "Joy is not optional.

(00:59):

It is essential to a life well lived, a team well managed, and a company well run." Whew, that's a big promise, isn't it?

Andy Stanley (01:08):

I know and when we first talked about having Kate Bowler on to talk about her book, my initial response was joy really.

Suzy Gray (01:13):

Right!

Andy Stanley (01:14):

In Entrepreneur Magazine, this is a topic that is bubbled up within the context of leadership and corporate life. And to your point, it sounds soft, but anybody who listened to last week's podcast, you get the impression no, it's not at all.

Suzy Gray (01:26):

Yeah.

Andy Stanley (01:26):

Hopefully it elicited or helped some of our listeners think about creating space for joy or recognizing it when it happens and then asking the question, "What just happened?" And how do I get more of that?

Suzy Gray (01:38):

How do I create that?

Andy Stanley (01:39):

And I love, love, loved the idea that joy is found in the storyline of our lives, not in the busyness of our lives. And when we take time to pull out and sort of recenter around the storyline, not just the task in front of us, that really is where joy is found.

Suzy Gray (01:59):

Absolutely.

Andy Stanley (02:00):

And if we don't do that, that moment of transcendence that she talked about, it's not going to happen and we're going to miss it. And then we're going to opt for happiness and happiness depends on events and experiences and then off we go chasing things that ultimately when they're over, they're over. And anyway, I thought it was a fascinating conversation and it's a fascinating book for sure.

Suzy Gray (02:20):

Absolutely. And why do you think it is though that we all can sense, okay, that's important, but why do you think leaders tend to underestimate joy?

Andy Stanley (02:29):

I don't think we underestimate it. I think we just never think about it. I didn't. Again, when we talked about having Kate on, I'm like, "I don't know if this is a leadership topic." But again, as we read the book and as we considered the conversation, it absolutely is because there are moments even in corporate life where there's this sense of joy. So I want to talk a little bit more about that. And I was tempted just to stay in this lane with her in the interview, but there was so much I wanted us to get to. In fact, I almost stopped her to tell a story, so I'll tell it now.

Suzy Gray (03:03):

Okay, good.

Andy Stanley (03:04):

When we were looking for property for our first site, for the church we're sitting at today at North point Community Church, I was with a gentleman named Howard Bowen, who I've known for many, many years. You know Howard. We were working together to find property and we visited so many sites. We trumped through the woods, we got wet. We have this funny story about sticker bushes. He was ahead of me and he was holding back a limb with briars on it and he moved it so he could move past it. Then he let go of it.

Suzy Gray (03:33):

Oh no.

Andy Stanley (03:34):

Yeah. And it came back, went right into my head. And so I'm like, and he stops and I'm trying ... Anyways, you get the point.

(03:42):

And it was actually on that visit because we'd visited so many sites and I wasn't ... I don't know if that I was discouraged, but I thought this is just never ending. We're never going to find enough property in the area that we want to be. And he said, this is what he said to me. He said, "Andy, little context, he's probably 20 years older than me, very successful developer." He's been there, done that. He said, "Andy, every once in a while, you have to stop and look back to appreciate the progress you've made because as long as you're facing forward, there's no progress. There's just resistance. Resistance. Resistance. There's lots to do and you can't get to the ultimate thing for the next thing. But when you look back, all of that's been cleared out. " And he said, "If you don't stop every once in a while and appreciate the progress, you're not going to have the motivation to keep moving forward." Now, he said that in about 15% of those words, but that was the idea and that, no pun intended, has stuck with me.

(04:45):

I mean, it really has. And every once in a while, as I remember that, when I stop and look back, there is joy.

(04:53):

And this is why I so connected with what she talked about in relationship to joy is found in the storyline, because the past is the storyline. Now, there's things in our past that don't elicit joy. But when we think about our careers or even organizational life where we have made progress or built something or developed something, looking back and thinking through all the things that had to happen and all the successes and navigating the failures to get to the place where we are today, it elicits appreciation and gratitude, which she said basically is connected to joy. So looking ahead doesn't necessarily bring joy, even the things I'm looking forward to, but as I think about looking back, but that requires time and I have to discipline myself to do that. But for me, that's one of those things that creates the capacity, or I should say the potential for a moment of joy, that transcendent sense of wow and peace, all things are good, at least momentarily in the world.

(06:01):

So can you relate to that?

Suzy Gray (06:03):

I mean, absolutely. And I really resonated with her talking about creating space because life is meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting, meeting to meeting during the workday and creating, even as she said, even if it's 10 minutes to just ... And whatever that is, it can kind of connect you back to that storyline is something that's going to allow you to push forward. And I definitely resonate with that. I mean, whether it's just my husband works in the same building and whether it's just grabbing a quick cup of coffee and popping in to say hi, or whatever it is, just that feeling of like, there's my story, it allows you to move forward with whatever's ahead in your day. So I really did resonate with that idea, but it's being intentional about, instead of these 10 minutes I have, oh, I need to respond to those six texts I just got, it's, can I create that time and discipline myself for that?

Andy Stanley (06:56):

The other moment, I didn't want to interrupt her, is Sandra's family has about an 80 acre farm in South Georgia or middle Georgia, we would call it, down by Dublin where they live. And every Thanksgiving, the whole family gathers, that's where we have our Thanksgiving. We go on Friday. Everybody has their family Thanksgiving and we show up on Friday and there's two little ponds and it's a pasture and it's not huge and it is not fancy. And every Thanksgiving, as we've already eaten and the day's moving on, this is so weird, I go down toward one of these ponds and lay down in the ... It's not tall grass because he mows it before we all get there because everybody's just kind of chilling and those moments are just 100% joy. It is somewhat transcendent. There's just a overwhelming sense of peace. But again, family is story and those Fridays kind of connect all of us.

(07:57):

And again, we have all the same stuff every family has. I mean, there's just stuff, but something about that Friday, and especially if the weather's good and I can just lay down on the grass for 10 minutes and stare up at the sky, it's just- Joy.

(08:13):

It's just joy. So I do think there are ways that we can chase it and find it, and it's so necessary. I think you've said it, it's recentering. And again, it's part of the storyline of our life. And I just thought that one idea in her book and in that discussion just gave me ... I think it tightened the context for finding joy and not maintaining it all the time. It's not that, but enough of those moments, you connect enough of those moments and you keep moving forward. And I don't know if it's before or after, but it is so closely associated with gratitude.

Suzy Gray (08:52):

Definitely.

Andy Stanley (08:52):

Then too, what she said about when you do things for others. The other, I think I might've mentioned this on the podcast, it's even still emotional to talk about, which is another component of this. Every year our team here goes and just does a work project for an organization and years ago we built a playhouse in the backyard of a little girl who had cancer and I am not a good builder or painter, but we built it in an afternoon while she was gone with her family. And have I told this story? Yeah, I did the big reveal. Yeah. Yeah. I told it before. But even remembering the look on her face and remembering that afternoon still brings me joy.

Suzy Gray (09:35):

Wow.

Andy Stanley (09:36):

But again, it's the trajectory and it's the story, part of my life. And it was that selfless day where there was no takeaway except here I am telling the story because the joy associated with that moment carries with me as opposed to, I don't have any stories to tell about things I've purchased or cars I've traded. It's a whole different thing. Those are the kind of happiness, momentary happiness things. So I think the takeaway for leaders is we have to find a way to string those together to find those moments or create space for those moments because it's like jet fuel to the soul in the busyness of life. So anyway, so those are mine. Do you ever have joy? Suzy, you ever have joy?

Suzy Gray (10:26):

I really struggle with joy. No.

Andy Stanley (10:28):

What brings you joy?

Suzy Gray (10:30):

Oh gosh, so many things. I mean, being with my kids, actually things that we do as a team, there's certain things that we do and certain rhythms we have that I like see it on the calendar and I'm like ... And it brings me joy. It's not just I like to do it or I enjoy doing it.

Andy Stanley (10:48):

Well, you look forward

Suzy Gray (10:49):

To it. Joyful and I look forward to it. And it connects with something that matters to me with people I care about. I mean, really what you just described with that little girl and building that house was the joy you saw on her connected to your storyline and now she's in your storyline. And I think that that is what these moments, whether it's with the team or with my family, with my kids, especially with my husband, Jason, connects to that storyline and it propels you forward because it's like, it's coming. And I think Kate's point about recognizing when that happens so that you can have that anticipation and look for it. Yep. The interesting thing though, kind of going back to it's so important as a leader, it's actually so important for a team that that leader leads. There was a Forbes article that made a direct connection between a leader's presence and a team's performance.

(11:43):

It says, "People are more inclined to follow a leader who is positive and joyful because joyful leaders see opportunities, take risks and recover from disappointment, and that energy spreads to others." That's a really strong claim because that basically says, as a leader, not only is it a nice to have for you to create these moments and find and connect to your through line and your storyline for joy, but it actually is critical for those you lead to do that. Have you seen that play out?

Andy Stanley (12:15):

Yes. And I'm so glad you brought that quote because one of the things that we do at the beginning of really every meeting I'm a part of, whether I'm leading it or not, this is just in the culture of our organization, is we tell stories and we have an agenda and we've got numbers and dashboards and scorecards and scoreboards, all the corporate stuff. But for us, the win in our organization is life change. So we thrive on the stories of life change. And even in our most corporate moments, even in our board meetings, when you start with a story or stories of life change, it elicits joy. It's so emotional and suddenly there's this transcendence of we're lifted out of the numbers, whether they're going up or down or flat or whatever it might be. And to think that we did something that created that kind of change, a family restored, a prodigal that comes home, a father that says, "Hey, I'm going to take my family responsibility more seriously," whatever it might be.

(13:15):

Everybody in the room has, to your point, there's a collective sense of both gratitude and joy, but again, that's the storyline of our organization,

Suzy Gray (13:24):

Right?

Andy Stanley (13:25):

This is in line with what we came to do and why we came to do it. And then we dive into the numbers and all the problems and all the stuff. So I think even within organizational life, finding the wins, allowing there to be time for stories. And honestly, I've sat in meetings where I've thought, "Okay, enough stories. I have seven. We got to get to this stuff." But that's generally a mistake, but the stories that elicit the joy actually galvanize us around, here's what we came to do. So whatever-

Suzy Gray (13:59):

It galvanizes the team.

Andy Stanley (13:59):

Yeah. Whatever we're about to talk about, it's got to create more of that. So again, even other people's joy in some ways is contagious, but that's my responsibility to keep that front center because my tendency is, "Hey, let's get busy. We got stuff to talk about and here comes Sunday."

Suzy Gray (14:14):

But I actually think that that's very common for leaders to look at their team and be like, "You know what? We're doing fine. We're hitting our goals. We're hitting our numbers. Everything is good."

Andy Stanley (14:24):

There is no joy in numbers.

Suzy Gray (14:25):

Yeah. Well, there's not. And they think, "Oh, I don't need to worry about how they feel as long as they're performing," which is-

Andy Stanley (14:30):

Yeah, that's not true.

Suzy Gray (14:31):

... a huge, huge miss because researchers actually know that that line of thinking can unintentionally create what they call a joy gap, which is a gap between what people hope to experience at work and what people actually experience at work. And why do you think that there's so many leaders that unintentionally create that gap of what people hope is they're going to experience at work and actually experience it?

Andy Stanley (14:55):

Why are we unintentionally?

Suzy Gray (14:56):

Yeah.

Andy Stanley (14:56):

I just think it's because we're not intentional about what we're talking about. And no one has accused me of being a joyful leader, Susie. I mean, I'm being accused of other things, but that, in fact, and I know I've told this story before, but years ago, early in our organization, I decided to quit drinking coffee. Yeah. So this is-

Suzy Gray (15:15):

I thought you drank so much coffee, you went to different Starbucks and those workers didn't know how much to drink.

Andy Stanley (15:19):

Thay didn't even have Starbucks back then.

Suzy Gray (15:21):

Oh, this is before that.

Andy Stanley (15:21):

Okay. Well, this is way back. So I decided I got to get off coffee. But the problem was I made coffee taste like a donut, so it was so bad. In fact, I would tell people who they would say, "Oh, I don't like coffee." I'm like, "Let me fix it for you.

Suzy Gray (15:32):

" Yeah, let me try. Well, you like this.

Andy Stanley (15:35):

Yeah, So I decided to quit drinking coffee. So one day I come in and Julie Arnold,

Suzy Gray (15:39):

Yeah

Andy Stanley (15:39):

Remember Julie, she came in and she said, "Andy, I need to tell you something on behalf of the team." I said, "What?" She said, "We want you to start drinking coffee again." She said, "You're such a grouch." We had that kind of relationship. You're so grouchy. That's all I needed to hear. I was back.

Suzy Gray (15:55):

Don't ask me twice.

Andy Stanley (15:56):

but the point is, the leader's tone sets the tone, the leader's enthusiasm sets the tone. It's awkward to be more positive or more enthusiastic than your leader, that's kind of the lid. And as one of my mentors said years ago, the most important thing to bring to your team is your energy. Energy. Yeah. So all of that goes along with, okay, am I not a joyful personality, but do I create the capacity or the space or the context for joy to be experienced with the team as we talk about what we're doing and why we're doing it and the results of what we're doing as it relates to other people. And regardless of what an industry person's in, whatever they're selling or service they're providing, on the other side of that product, on the other side of that service are people.

(16:44):

And to the degree we can connect the dots between the joy or the health or the financial security or the whatever it is or the toys or the safety that we bring other people, again, there's the opportunity to connect those dots. And that's the storyline of the company, the profession, the career, whatever it might be. But to your original question, we unintentionally don't do this because we don't think about it and we're not intentional. And honestly, even preparing for my conversation with Kate was a little bit convicting because I miss those cues sometimes. So I don't think you do. You are a naturally joyful person.

Suzy Gray (17:21):

I mean, I enjoy life. And remember when we had Arthur on the first time, Arthur Brooks, we had taken that test. Are we a mad scientist? Are we a poet? And I was a cheerleader.

Andy Stanley (17:32):

Oh, I remember that.

Suzy Gray (17:33):

Yeah. And I-

Andy Stanley (17:34):

You are a cheerleader.

Suzy Gray (17:36):

I mean, I-

Andy Stanley (17:37):

In fact, everybody knows when I met you, you were

Suzy Gray (17:39):

Literally- I actually was a

Andy Stanley (17:40):

Cheerleader.

Suzy Gray (17:42):

It's true!

Andy Stanley (17:43):

ninth grade, or whatever.

Suzy Gray (17:44):

Ninth grade. I wasn't. Yes, I was a cheerleader in high school. I think I'm naturally wired that way. And there's positive and negatives to every wiring, but I think regardless of your wiring, being able to say, "Hey, this is important and I'm going to figure out a way to get it or to create space for it in my team and as an organization." I think that's so important. And I actually liked Kate's discussion that she had with you about toxic positivity because sometimes people confuse joy with positivity and that is really not the same or a good thing. In fact, that same article that I mentioned earlier made it clear that real joy does not project false cheerfulness, ignore pain or accept fear-based control. And I think that that's so important because leaders have got to think about what is the difference between unhealthy, honest, but upbeat culture and just fake positivity.

Andy Stanley (18:38):

Yeah. It goes back to something Jim Collins reminded us of on 25 or six years ago, I can't believe it's been that long, that you have to face the brutal facts, but you can face the brutal facts and build from there back to being positive with the brutal facts in mind.

Suzy Gray (18:54):

Hopeful and positive about the future.

Andy Stanley (18:56):

And again, I said this on the podcast with Kate, the fact that Kate is able to do that with her diagnosis. So she didn't go into detail and that wasn't my story to tell, but it is not a casual thing that she is having to navigate that kind of hangs over her head every single day of her life as a wife and a mother, and yet she really is an extraordinarily joyful person, which takes away all of our excuses. And when you're dealing with a medical situation like she is, you cannot ignore the brutal facts. They are with you every single day. And yet she has found joy in the midst of that. And again, that's why she's one of the most inspiring people that I know, and we just love her to death.

Suzy Gray (19:40):

Yeah, she really is amazing. Before you joined the call, I was like, "I just want to hang out with you. "

Andy Stanley (19:46):

Yeah, she has that effect on people.

Suzy Gray (19:48):

Yeah, for sure. So Andy, as we wrap up, one of the simplest, most practical ideas that has showed up in all of this research on this topic of the connection between joy in the workplace is the idea of recognition, just noticing what's going right and calling it out. In fact, Entrepreneur Magazine in that article says, "Catching people doing things right strengthens engagement." So it's talking about joy, but it says not only does recognition foster joy, but it strengthens engagement. Why do you think that's such a powerful lever for leaders?

Andy Stanley (20:20):

Well, I think in the workplace, especially because we're moving so quickly, people don't know that anybody is paying attention to what they're doing. So true. Right? Yeah. And I'm not asking for necessarily a response to this, but even on a Sunday, after I get up and pour my heart out and these ... I've worked all week and I did my talk, I get very little feedback on sermons. Now Twitter used to be helpful. I could see how I did, but everybody's off X now, that's kind of gone away. So even as confident as I am in what I do and as many comments, positive comments as I get, the lack of immediate feedback, even I feel that. So if I feel that, I mean, the average person doing the average job that most people don't even know, because they're not doing it in public in front of hundreds or thousands of people.

(21:16):

So when we stop to notice or celebrate what someone has done, it definitely elicits joy in them, if nothing else, oh, somebody noticed and somebody noticed my hard work and somebody noticed how my work connected the dots between what everybody else is doing here to move the whole organization forward. It's a really big deal. So going back to something I said earlier, when we tell stories at the beginning of staff meetings, oftentimes the stories transition into us bragging on each other.

Suzy Gray (21:48):

Yes, I've seen it.

Andy Stanley (21:49):

Or in talking about other staff members who, because of what they did, these stories became a reality, which sometimes results in Diane saying, "Hey, you want to write them a note?" I'm like, "Absolutely." Oh, or I'll hear a story and say, "Diane, will you get me their cell phone number? I want to text them. I hadn't heard about that. " So catching people doing things right, even though in most cases they're just doing their job, and this is important to point out not just you're doing a good job, but the significance of the job that they do well. Again, that at least creates the context or the potential for them to have that momentary sense of joy because it's somewhat transcendent. Somebody noticed, it made a difference, what I do matters. Again, it's up, up, up, up, and up. So I do think that's the connection.

(22:36):

Again, catching people doing things right to the point of the article, it does potentially elicit joy and it definitely strengthens engagement because somebody noticed and clearly what I'm doing is making a difference. I want to make more of a difference. I'm going to be more engaged. And the opposite is true. When we don't recognize or reward people doing things right, the problem with that is that essentially we're taking people for granted and that feels, even if you like what you do, that's just a withdrawal.

(23:07):

And again, I want to be careful. I feel that sometimes even in what I do, but hopefully I'm mature enough to keep moving on and people don't have to stop and pat me on the back every time they see me. The point is, if I feel that at this season of my life, that is sitting there potentially in the heart or soul of every employee in every organization and we cannot catch people doing things right too often. We can't celebrate them too often. And to the point of the article, each one of those deposits creates the potential for a moment of joy and appreciation and gratitude. And why not do as much of that as possible, right?

Suzy Gray (23:45):

Absolutely. 100%. And that's such a-

Andy Stanley (23:47):

Suzy, you're doing a great job.

Suzy Gray (23:48):

Thanks, Andy. So are you. You're doing a great job.

Andy Stanley (23:51):

You're the best host I've had since you started.

Suzy Gray (23:54):

Wow. No, but that point really is the takeaway for leaders.That is something they can start doing today that can practically bring joy into the organization and foster deeper engagement.

Andy Stanley (24:11):

And last thing, this works at home.

Suzy Gray (24:13):

Absolutely.

Andy Stanley (24:14):

Catch your kids doing things right every time because when you catch them doing something wrong, that's a big withdrawal. That's a big withdrawal. But again, we just assume, take things for granted.

Suzy Gray (24:24):

Yeah, that's such good advice. Well, Andy, that is all the time we have today. Thanks as always for diving deeper on this month's topic. And to our listeners, thanks for listening to this episode of Reverb. If you found it helpful, be sure to leave a review or pass along to another leader. And as always, subscribe wherever you listen and check out andystanley.com/podcast for more resources to help you go even further faster.