REVERB 30: How Vulnerability Drives High Performance Transcript

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Suzy Gray (00:02):

Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb, A conversation designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging deeper into this month's episode. I'm your host, Suzy Gray. Last week, Andy was joined by Charles Duhigg for a conversation about the surprising role psychological safety plays in the workplace. Andy, I think it was really interesting you guys kept making the point of this is not theoretical, this is practical.

Andy Stanley (00:25):

Well, and I made the point that years ago when I first heard about psychological safety, I'm like, what is that? Yeah. And then when it got defined for me, I'm like, oh yeah, I've worked in places where there's not psychological safety. It's a real thing.

Suzy Gray (00:38):

It's not fun.

Andy Stanley (00:40):

Yes, I know you sit in a meeting and you know need to say something, but you think so long and hard about how you're going to say it because you don't feel safe and you don't think about it as safety. You think about, I don't want to look dumb. I don't want to look bad. I don't want people to roll their eyes. But that's safety.

Suzy Gray (00:55):

Definitely.

Andy Stanley (00:56):

And then now as a boss or having direct reports, the last thing I want is somebody sitting in a meeting with me and they want to say something or point something out or push back on something and they're thinking, oh no, what's going to happen? And again, they don't think in terms of safety, but they're subconsciously wondering, is it safe to say that?

Suzy Gray (01:16):

Am I okay to say this?

Andy Stanley (01:17):

Yeah. Will people laugh? Will people push back? And the point I made at the beginning of our conversation last week, because we've talked about this on the podcast, is our intuition is usually indefensible. But I don't want people to not share their intuition in a meeting because they're like, oh, if I say that, they're going to ask me why. Or they're going to ask me how. And again, with their psychological safety, people feel free to share thoughts without needing to defend them. And we want everything on the table. So it's not an HR issue. This is personal. And again, once I understood what it was, I can remember sitting in meetings maybe like you could as well wondering, is it okay to say that? Is this the way to say it? When I was in graduate school, we had a professor, and he was so intimidating that literally the students in the class, we literally would write out our question. The illustration is a guy got up one time and asked a question. It was kind of a long rambling question. And this professor literally said, and I quote, he's paused. And he looked at the student and he said, A well thought through question is always beneficial for the class.

Suzy Gray (02:25):

Wow.

Andy Stanley (02:26):

That's a quote. A well thought through question, always, always benefits the class. And then he just went on with a lecture,

Suzy Gray (02:31):

Dismissed him.

Andy Stanley (02:33):

Just dismissed him.

Suzy Gray (02:33):

Wow.

Andy Stanley (02:33):

Well, we didn't know about psychological safety, but it was nuts.

Suzy Gray (02:38):

There was none there!

Andy Stanley (02:39):

There was none there. And so literally when you had a question in that class, we would write it were, I couldn't listen to the lecture for trying to write my, so again, that's an extreme example. But the longer you're in an environment, oftentimes you begin to create psychological safety because as we're going to talk about psychological safety is directly related to the nature of the relationship you have with the person.

Suzy Gray (03:02):

Definitely.

Andy Stanley (03:02):

So if you're new in the organization or you're new to a group in the organization, or you're a little bit insecure. Anyway, the great thing about what Charles said is that as leaders, the implication is we have a responsibility to create psychological safety. It's just not on the person who's struggling with that, that there are things we can do. We can not say a well thought through question is beneficial for the whole table. So anyway, that was the point of the conversation, and I think it's so helpful. And even as he was, as we were talking last week, I'm thinking, I don't think I'd do that again. As always, when I talk to Charles, I want to take notes, not just interview. Yeah.

Suzy Gray (03:45):

Well, and I think this topic is even more important when things aren't going well, when there's missed goal or a blown deadline or a fail project, then you feel even if you have relational equity, you feel probably a little bit more of it.

Suzy Gray (04:00):

Yeah. You feel a little bit unsafe, A little bit tentative, a little bit. I don't know where I fit anymore. I don't know if I'm okay to go back in that room.

Andy Stanley (04:08):

Yeah. Is he mad at me or is he just mad?

Suzy Gray (04:10):

That's right.

Andy Stanley (04:11):

Yeah,

Suzy Gray (04:11):

That's right.

Andy Stanley (04:12):

And in that regard, and we can dive deeper. It's interesting because if I can speak as the manager or the boss for a minute, so many of these conversations, for me, it's very corporate because I feel very psychologically safe. You're the boss. I answer to a board. None of them are in the room. I feel super safe. So consequently, my tendency will be to keep the conversation at the corporate problem solving level, but for everybody around the table, it's not corporate. It's a hundred percent personal because they're not just adding information or responding, but it's through a filter of how will this be received?

Suzy Gray (04:48):

hmm

Andy Stanley (04:48):

As the boss, I don't think about any of that. I just to a fault will be direct or interrupt or, okay, I don't want to talk about that anymore. Well, that creates even less psychological safety because people feel dismissed. Because I can say things that are dismissed if I have a tendency to interrupt when I feel like, oh yeah, that's not, but nobody else can. (05:10):

So It was a good reminder to me. But at the same time, for everybody who has direct reports, it is incumbent upon us to create psychological safety, not just because we want to be nice people, but we get the best out of people. We get the ideas out of people, and again, we get more information on the table as we're trying to make decisions. So it was a great reminder. And again, his point is how we communicate determines the level of psychological safety for the people in the room, whether it's at home or in the marketplace. So it was a good reminder for me.

Suzy Gray (05:42):

Definitely. And I think when you have those moments where something has gone wrong, as the employee, you have the moment of like, I'm disappointed in myself. I'm disappointed in the performance. I'm disappointed the project go the way you wanted to. And then you add, if there's not psychological safety, it's a recipe for just turning inward, isn't it?

Andy Stanley (06:05):

Yeah

Suzy Gray (06:06):

And then for the manager, they can have a reaction that's also not helpful. They can actually tighten control or micromanage. Right?

Andy Stanley (06:14):

And nobody wants to be managed.

Suzy Gray (06:16):

No,

Andy Stanley (06:16):

No. We just all want to be loved and accepted, which we don't talk about at work. But you know what? We all want to be loved and accepted, and we want people to think our ideas are good ideas. And if I think for the most part, you think my ideas are good ideas, I'm going to keep sharing my ideas, but you start trying to micromanage me or tightly manage me, I become more careful. I become more cautious. I become more reserved. You're going to get less out of me. And again, because I don't feel there's the word again, Safe.

Suzy Gray (06:42):

Safe. So let's talk about how leaders actually model this, that kind of a quote, unquote. It's safe to be honest here. Environment.

Andy Stanley (06:50):

Yeah. The word that Charles used early in our discussion was the word vulnerability. That as a leader, if I'll go first. And I think this is a principle to the degree that I'm willing to be vulnerable, rarely will an employee be more vulnerable than the person they report to. And we can begin the process of vulnerability and humility. It really goes back to humility. By going first, it's when I acknowledge, I don't know, I'm not sure. Here are some things, but I really need to hear what you have to say. I'm not a hundred percent confident. I've made this mistake in the past. Anytime that I can be honest and be vulnerable, I'm being human. And again, this is about interpersonal relationship. It's about communication. And super communicators know how to draw the best out of the people around them. And a lot of times it's stepping out of my role as the boss or the manager and being vulnerable.Vulnerability always, always invites vulnerability. You almost have to be completely emotionally disconnected from the real world, not to respond to an expression of vulnerability.

Suzy Gray (07:56):

Definitely

Andy Stanley (07:56):

Without more vulnerability, even if it's just simply, oh, wow, I understand, or I didn't know that. So again, I think that leader sets the tone. And again, if we can remember, we are responsible. I'll personalize it. I'm responsible for creating psychological safety. How do I create psychological safety, vulnerability, humility. And then the other thing we talked about is curiosity, and asking those second level or third level questions. The question he had that was so great, somebody says, I'm a doctor, really? Instead of saying, you work in a hospital,

Suzy Gray (08:29):

What hospital do you work at?

Andy Stanley (08:31):

Because that's what I would say, well, where do you work? Do you work? Is it independent practice? You work for a? And he says, no, you should ask really what drew you into the medical profession? Well, that's a way better question. And I'm inviting somebody to go to a personal level and answering the question. And even though he talked about that as something that might happen at a party, this can happen around a table. This can happen in a corporate environment. And again, to the degree that the leader begins with vulnerability or expresses vulnerability, it invites vulnerability and people just feel safer.

Suzy Gray (09:07):

So Andy, let's make this really practical. When things have actually gone wrong, what do you say to create psychological safety? Where should people start?

Andy Stanley (09:16):

Like when we're having to confront an issue or personnel situation?

Suzy Gray (09:20):

Exactly.

Andy Stanley (09:21):

Well, again, he talks a little bit about this. This is hard to remember, especially if you're mad. If I'm go into the conversation and I'm already emotional, I'm not going to get this right. So this is that whole thing we've talked about before. I need to go face the leader in the mirror, deal with my issues, own my slice of the pie, get as neutral as possible, or I'm going to over communicate. But assuming that's the case, I love what he said about beginning with curiosity. And I wrote in my notes on this, start with being curious, not correction. I needed to say, okay, we need to talk about this. This is why you did this. And I think I said this on the podcast. I just assume everything that everybody does makes perfect sense to them. If I can just remember this, okay, this person did this, they did the wrong thing, or they've created a problem, whatever it might be. But this is a smart person. If we hired well.

Suzy Gray (10:12):

Yeah

Andy Stanley (10:14):

So this made perfect sense to them. So I need to be curious. Okay, I'm confused. Why did you do this made sense to you? What were you thinking? What was the thought process? And in most cases, I learned something. It's like, oh, I still think it was the wrong decision. But that makes sense. And again, it's an invitation for the person to have an opportunity to explain themselves without having to defend themselves. And that's two different things.

Suzy Gray (10:41):

Um hmm

Andy Stanley (10:41):

If you can stay out of defense mode and just say, oh, here's what I was thinking. Here's what I thought. In some instances I get information that makes me think, oh, well, yeah, that makes sense. It's still the wrong decision, but at least you know why. Right? I know the backstory.

Suzy Gray (10:55):

That's right.

Andy Stanley (10:56):

So I think always starting with curiosity, you can't lose being curious. And again, those better questions always result in better outcomes.

Suzy Gray (11:04):

You and Charles made this point. It applies to work, but it also applies to the family. I feel like when something goes bad with one of my kids, and we've talked through it, the last question I ask is, what did you learn?

Andy Stanley (11:14):

Oh, yeah, that's a good question.

Suzy Gray (11:15):

Because one of those like, Hey, this didn't go well. We've talked about why it didn't go well. We've kind of agreed like, Hey, this could have gone better. But what did you learn?

Andy Stanley (11:23):

Would you say that to an employee?

Suzy Gray (11:25):

What did you learn?

Andy Stanley (11:26):

Yeah,

Suzy Gray (11:26):

Yeah.

Andy Stanley (11:27):

Oh, you would.

Suzy Gray (11:27):

I would. Because I think you're like, no, you wouldn't.

Andy Stanley (11:31):

Well, t's kind of intimidating. I don't know.

Suzy Gray (11:34):

Well, I think that, give me a minute. Can I back next week? Idea, come back next week. I'll tell you what I learned. But I do think that there's something about when there's a failure, if you've learned something, it's not a failure. If you can identify, Hey, I learned this, then you just learned something, it's not a failure. And I think that helps reframe the situation that you're in of. You learned something, you've made progress. You probably won't do that again because of it.

Andy Stanley (11:59):

Yeah, yeah.

Suzy Gray (12:00):

That's not failure, it's progress.

Andy Stanley (12:01):

That's a way to potentially end those conversations on a high note, a positive note. And if you tell me you've learned something, then we're on the same page. The only thing I would add to that is even in confrontational conversations at work, there is an opportunity for the leader or the boss or the manager to express vulnerability. Hey, I know this is going to be a tough conversation. I've been on both sides of these conversations. I remember a time when we've all had those. So let's just level the playing field. This isn't going to be fun. But anytime we can humanize these things, it's so important. But again, for me, that requires some work ahead of time that I get neutral, because either if I'm not neutral, I'm either going to power up, I'm going to get bigger, or I'm going to get smaller (12:50):

As Steve cuss talks about, I'm going to get smaller and insecure, or I'm going to get bigger. So the vulnerability, the curiosity, all those things create psychological safety. And I think as we wrap up, the question for all of us is, are we willing to incorporate this value? Because psychological safety is a value. It is a value. Are we willing to incorporate that into our conversation, into our vocabulary? And most importantly, are we willing to take responsibility for not assuming psychological safety on behalf of the people we work with? Because in my position, I think, what are you afraid of? Why wouldn't you share? Let's all be transparent because I feel psychologically safe. But I would say to the leader, if you feel super psychologically safe for other people, you lead good. Don't assume that they do. And again, we are responsible for creating the optimal environment for idea sharing, for intuition to be played out and discussed without fear of retribution. And that's something that we have to be responsible for. So the conversation with Charles, even though I read the book, and even though we've talked about some of those things, I've found myself thinking, oh yeah, I've got to be careful. I need to be more curious. Yeah,

Suzy Gray (14:04):

That's right. It was such a good reminder for all of us. For sure. Well, that is all the time we have, Andy. Thanks as always for diving deeper on this month's topic. And to our listeners, thanks for listening to this episode of Reverb. If you found it helpful, be sure to leave a review or pass it along to another leader. And as always, subscribe where you listen. And check out Andy stanley.com/podcast for more resources to help you go even further faster.