REVERB 29: The Hidden Anxiety Shaping Your Leadership
Listen to the podcast.
Suzy Gray (00:02):
Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast Reverb, a conversation designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging deeper into this month's podcast. I'm your host, Suzy Gray. Last week, Andy was joined by Steve Cuss, and they had a great conversation of Steve's book, Managing Leadership Anxiety. So Andy, to get us started, I actually want to start with something personal. Steve talked about anxiety in a very specific context. He talks about there's a type of anxiety that is driven and triggered by false needs. And it's not really any danger that you're in. It's not really anything that's going to harm you. But when this false need gets triggered, you actually have almost a fight or flight response.
Yeah, he talked about you either power up or you step back.
Suzy Gray (00:50):
Or you shrink.
Andy Stanley (00:51):
Yeah
And he mentions five different types of false needs. So I'm going to list them, but you talked about one of these in particular that you feel like is your false need.
Andy Stanley (01:02):
And then I'm going to ask you what yours is because you weren't in the studio last week, but go ahead. You'll have a minute to think. So the five false needs are control, perfectionism, having the answer. That was an interesting one. That's one he said he struggled with that. People who feel like they have to have an answer, when they don't have an answer, they feel anxiety around that.
Suzy Gray (01:20):
They feel stressed. And he said he doesn't like to be tricked because he always wants to have the answer.
Andy Stanley (01:24):
Yeah. He wants to have the answer. Being there for others.
Suzy Gray (01:27):
Yes.
Andy Stanley (01:28):
That was interesting too. He talked about people who have this anxiety, they can't tell the difference between their need and their need to be needed. So they rush in to meet a need, but it's meeting their need and it gets conflated and there's confusion that happens.
Suzy Gray (01:43):
Yeah. We talked about that's where enmeshment happens.
Yeah.
I need to save the day and now I'm overly helpful. And where does mind stop and your start?
Andy Stanley (01:50):
And we all know people who do that. They rush in and they're doing too much. We didn't really ask for their involvement. We were sharing. And next thing we know they're trying to fix our problem. And
Suzy Gray (02:00):
You're like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Andy Stanley (02:01):
Yeah, I was just sharing. I wasn't asking you to jump in. But when they hear about somebody with an issue, they feel anxiety and they act on that. Okay. And then the last one was approval, people's approval. It's a felt need. I feel the need for people's approval. But he calls these false needs because we don't really need them.
So the one that I identified with the quickest was perfectionism, that I feel a need for things to be perfect, things that I'm doing or things around me or things we've planned. And I work in a world where we're constantly planning events. And so I feel anxiety when I don't think things are going to be executed perfectly or when it turns out they weren't perfect. And 99.9% of the people don't even notice. And yet I feel that anxiety and it gets transferred to people around me. And for leaders, this is so important because the more influence we have or the larger the organization or the more direct reports we have, it always gets transferred. And then my anxiety, because he calls us an anxiety, it bumps into the false anxieties of everybody else in the room. And suddenly there are things going on that we can't explain, but we know something's wrong.
(03:15):
And then of course we tend to blame the people around us and off we go.
Suzy Gray (03:18):
And off you go.
Andy Stanley (03:18):
Yeah. So the whole conversation reframed something every single leader experiences at work and at home. And it just gave us handle. For me, it was so, so helpful. It just gave me some handles. So what is, Suzy, can you share with the world that you identify a false need?
Suzy Gray (03:34):
I mean, can you be all of them? I don't know.
Andy Stanley (03:37):
Well, he said he had three. I know, right? I feel like I have two. I definitely- You
Suzy Gray (03:42):
Said, okay, what are your two perfectionism?
Andy Stanley (03:44):
Yeah. And I've never thought about this till he was talking about it, actually in our staff meeting. The need for approval, but it's an unhealthy need for the approval of people who are my critics.
(03:57):
I spend way too much time thinking about not- Oh, you would convince them? Like I would convince them, and I'm not ever going to convince them. And in my mind, I have these imaginary conversations that I'm going to win the day. And it is pointless. And as he talked about it, I realized it creates anxiety in me. It creates this energy that it's completely false. It's nothing except that it takes my time and my attention. Anyway, it just gave, again, some context and some framework for something we all do. Okay. But back to you, Suzy, I think you're avoiding the question. What do you feel like your number one false need is of those five?
Suzy Gray (04:36):
Of those five. Well, I mean, you have known me for a very long time. What would you say it is?
Andy Stanley (04:41):
I don't think you're a people pleaser.
(04:44):
I don't think you are afraid of not having the answer. Even though you're very smart, you always have an answer. But I don't think ... I would say if I had to choose of the five, I would say that your anxiety level probably goes up over control because you're very methodical, which is why you're so good at what you do. And when things start to go awry, which I'm usually the cause, and that's why I am the cause of your anxiety. I know that. And it's because you have a plan and when I don't cooperate, accidentally.
Suzy Gray (05:13):
And you don't go with my plan.
Andy Stanley (05:14):
And I don't go with your plan. Your anxiety goes up, but you handle it so well. But it makes me want to be a people ... Anyway.
Suzy Gray (05:23):
No, I mean, I definitely see that.
Andy Stanley (05:24):
Think that's you?
Suzy Gray (05:25):
Yeah, no, I definitely can see that. And I think that Steve elevating these, it helps you pay attention to it more. So yeah, I think it's been a great exercise and discussion.
Andy Stanley (05:33):
So when he said to me that instead of thinking in terms of perfection, I should think in terms of make it better. It doesn't have to be perfect. It has to be better. So what do you think he would say to you about control? If it's not, I can't control things.
Suzy Gray (05:48):
I can't control it.
Andy Stanley (05:51):
i can...I wonder what that would be.
Suzy Gray (05:52):
That's what I tell my kids, you can't control the situation, but you control your response to the situation. Well, there you go. Yeah.
Andy Stanley (05:58):
Self-control.
Suzy Gray (05:59):
Self-control.
Andy Stanley (05:59):
Yeah, I've heard of that before.
Suzy Gray (06:00):
Yeah. I think we've heard about that, Andy.
Andy Stanley (06:02):
Well, that's true though. Yeah, it is. I can't control Andy and his not doing what I've asked him to do or what he said he would do, but I can control my response.
Suzy Gray (06:11):
My response.
Andy Stanley (06:12):
But that's the right place to retreat to that brings the temperature down.
Suzy Gray (06:17):
And it's the only thing that you really can control is your response.
Andy Stanley (06:19):
Exactly. And I can't make things perfect, but I can make things better.
Suzy Gray (06:23):
Better. See, look at us. We're learning!
Andy Stanley (06:24):
I know. The reason this is such an important conversation is every leader needs to identify the thing that triggers this kind of anxiety. Again, we're not talking about clinical anxiety, we're not talking about general worry. We're talking about the thing that causes us, again, to power up because of fear of losing control or fear not being approved. Or again, as he talked about it, shrinking back, I'm going to step back, I'm not going to engage, my insecurity is causing me to shrink back, to identify what those things are so that when they happen, we recognize it. And then he talked about the advantage of being able to help our teams recognize what theirs is.
(07:10):
So I'm not trying to fix everybody else or compensate for everybody else. I'm managing my own in the moment while they're managing theirs in the moment. Yeah. And that part of the conversation I thought was so, so helpful. And it's one reason I didn't mention this on this podcast, but I did last week. This is one of the reasons I'm so glad so many of our staff are reading this book. And it's why we brought him in to spend two days with our staff. Again, to reframe something we all experience at work and at home and to give us common terminology to be able to talk about it.
Suzy Gray (07:41):
Yeah. Yeah. I loved the way that he talked about as painful as it was, his early training allowed him to have to sit on a hot seat essentially
(07:51):
And get very pointed feedback. But he said it's the first time that people had been genuinely honest about the things that he was struggling with and what a gift that was. And I mean, that's hyper vulnerarability for sure. One of the things you and Steve briefly touched on in that episode was the gap that leaders must face between not knowing what to do and having to do something anyway, especially as it relates to our staff looking at us during times of uncertainty because we need to have the answer. And when you look back, how did you learn to lead in that gap without pretending that you have all the answers?
Andy Stanley (08:26):
Well, when I think about my experience, and again, I don't know if this is something to model. I'm just answering the question. And I thought about this when he was talking about that. For me, for whatever reason, maybe insecurity, it's always been easy for me to acknowledge that I don't have all the answers, that one of those false anxieties is always having to have the answer. It's pretty easy for me to say, "I don't know, " or, "I'm not sure because I don't know and I'm not sure." And I think part of it is I resist the leader who always knows and they're always so sure because I think you don't really know.
Suzy Gray (08:56):
You really don't know.
Andy Stanley (08:58):
Yeah. And that's not helpful. So I think the magic is acknowledging that we don't have all the answers. And as we've talked about on the podcast multiple times, clarity is the next best thing to certainty. Certainty is I have all the answers and this is the answer and you can take it to the bank. Well, in most situations in leadership, to promise that kind of certainty is ... You know,
Suzy Gray (09:20):
You can't offer that.
Andy Stanley (09:21):
Well, you can say it, but you can't- But you can't really offer it. Politicians do it all the time and then when it doesn't work out, they blame somebody. But in leadership,
(09:29):
So if clarity's the next best thing to certainty, then in those situations where I really don't know, but we've got to make a decision, I just opt for clarity. I'm not sure. I don't have all the answers, but let me tell you what we're going to do. This is what we're going to do. And if at some point it doesn't work out, I'll take the blame for it, but this is where we're going. This is how we're going to get there. He used a phrase in our staff meeting. He says at some point you resort to salute and execute, salute and execute. In other words, we've talked about it, I've heard all the opinions, this is what we're going to do, I just need you to execute it. And then if we find out it was a bad decision, I'll take the blame. So again, clarity when you can't offer certainty.
Suzy Gray (10:09):
Do you think part of that is related to your temperament? I mean, in other words, do you think leaders can actually train themselves to stay grounded in uncertainty or is it part of it's just your wiring?
Andy Stanley (10:17):
Now, I think leaders can learn to do this. And I think this is why his book and the discussion last time was so important. For example, if my false need is perfection and I recognize that, then I realize going in, okay, my tendency is going to be not to make a decision until I have the perfect decision, the perfect solution. And then I recognize, okay, that is a false fear. It's a false need. So I need to set aside my perfection and make the best decision and commit to it. So that's mine. So for a person who they just need the approval of others and suddenly as a leader, they've got to make the decision and they recognize my anxiety isn't that I don't know what we should do. My anxiety is I need the approval of others
(11:06):
And that's what's causing me to have all this anxiety around the decision. So I'm going to set aside, I'm just going to decide I'm not going to be concerned about what others think about me. I need to let that go so the anxiety decreases and I'm going to make a better decision and then I'm going to decide and this is what we're going to do. So actually you could look at all five of those false needs within the context of decision making, but recognizing the anxiety really isn't, and he talked about this, talks about this in the book, the anxiety isn't that I don't know what we need to do. The anxiety is something else. And once I recognize that, then it's easier not to allow that to influence how I respond in a crisis or in a time when I've got to make a decision because we've got to move, something needs to be done.
Suzy Gray (11:51):
Yeah, it helps the temperature go down.
Andy Stanley (11:52):
Because there is going to be anxiety, but we confuse the anxiety. We think the anxiety has to do with the circumstances when in fact it's a false need that we're allowing to amplify the confusion around-
Suzy Gray (12:06):
Around the room.
Andy Stanley (12:07):
Yeah. And just seeing that, again, I just think that's super helpful.
(12:12):
Because you can see it in other people. Yeah.
Suzy Gray (12:15):
Exactly. So for leaders listening, what is one way they could pause in that moment when everyone's looking to them and the pressure's rising and create a little space for them to lead from presence instead of panic?
Andy Stanley (12:25):
Well, I think it's kind of what I just said. If we're going to answer that question within the context of this discussion, it's identifying the false need or the false needs and connecting the dots. And once I connect the dots, I realize, okay, I'm allowing something I'm afraid of that I really don't need to be afraid of to influence a decision that needs to be made right now and I've got to offer clarity because I can't offer certainty.
Suzy Gray (12:50):
And I suppose the more that you do it, the more that you recognize, okay, there it is again, there it is again.
Andy Stanley (12:56):
Yes. And through the years I've learned that clarity is helpful. And the other thing too is there's a difference between a direction and a plan.
(13:08):
So the clarity is this is the direction we're moving in. Here's the plan and just go ahead and prepare for the fact that we may alter and tweak the plan as we go. We're not committed to the plan, we're committed to the direction. We're making this up as we go along. Expect changes. I need you to be flexible. Here we go. And I don't want to hear anybody complaining, oh, you keep changing the plan. We're going, hey, you write the plan in pencil, you write the direction in ink, this is where we're going. So when all of that is just built into how we communicate a decision in the midst of crisis, it works. And again, if I can bring my personal anxiety down by recognizing what's causing it, I'm just going to make better decisions and I'm not going to communicate through the filter of my fear.
(13:58):
So if I'm a people pleaser and I want everybody to be happy, that's going to tamp down my conviction as I communicate direction.
Suzy Gray (14:07):
Oh, right.
Andy Stanley (14:07):
Any of those five false fears are going to become a filter through which we communicate. So recognizing those, setting those aside is just going to-
Suzy Gray (14:15):
Help you move forward.
Andy Stanley (14:16):
Yeah. And it doesn't necessarily help with deciding the direction as much as it does how we communicate it and how quickly we communicate it.
Suzy Gray (14:23):
No, that's so good.
Andy Stanley (14:24):
I don't know. That's kind of intangible.
Suzy Gray (14:26):
Well, I think that it's super helpful because again, it felt like when you and Steve were talking that this is a muscle memory. This is something that I've got to identify it and then I've got to learn and train myself to identify it. And it sounds like having others around you that can help identify it in you when it's happening.
Andy Stanley (14:42):
If you're secure enough to listen.
Suzy Gray (14:44):
Giving permission for others to do that.
Andy Stanley (14:46):
The other thing I would too say about this, and this is a little bit off topic, and I have learned to do this, when there's a decision that needs to be made, the people around me communicate a timeframe that is rarely real. And what I mean by that is we need to decide now, and we rarely need to decide now. Now, if somebody is bleeding to death, that's a whole different thing, right? But the intensity of the mob or the crowd in terms of, we got to decide, we got to decide, we got to decide. I've learned, generally speaking, I'm going to make a better decision if I choose the timeframe and I don't succumb or submit to theirs. And by theirs, I'm talking about wonderful people with great intention. They're not a problem. But when there's 12 people or 50 people or six people that are intense about we've got to do something, my tendency is to step back and say, "You're right and we're going to, and we're not going to decide right now." And again, sometimes a little bit of time, the temperature comes down and we can see more clearly anyway.
(15:48):
So that's another thing.
Suzy Gray (15:50):
Yeah, that's a great way when you're in the midst of the storm to create calm. It's like the power of the pause.
Andy Stanley (15:57):
Yeah.
Suzy Gray (15:57):
"Nope, we're going to pause that, that you're right, but we're going to wait a minute." And that helps you surface, do I have some of these things, whether it's perfectionism or control or whatever it is, that is clouding my ability to make a good decision or to respond effectively.
Andy Stanley (16:12):
One other thing while we're on this, and again, I don't know how helpful this is, and maybe this is just me, I think leaders, and I think this is something we develop over time, you have a sense of how confident am I ever about anything? Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. And so this is so not scientific. For me, if I get 85% confident, that's about as confident as I ever get. I remember when we were deciding what to do during COVID about shutting down our services and all that. I was about 85%. I wasn't 100%, but I know for me, again, it's the perfectionism thing. I'm never going to be 100% about virtually anything. Fortunately, Sandra, her temperament is different than mine and she's a better decision maker. She's a quicker decision maker. She's a more intuitive decision maker. So if I'm 80% and she's 90, if she's confident, I get confident because she's rarely wrong.
(17:14):
But again, going back to what you said earlier, our temperament I think does impact that. But just learning over time, okay, how confident, how sure am I ever? But once I stand up to say, this is the direction, there can be no flexibility. You can't blink, you can't, the plans will develop over time. They may change, but the decision has been made.
Suzy Gray (17:34):
The direction is set.
Andy Stanley (17:35):
Here we go.
Suzy Gray (17:36):
Yeah, I love it.
Andy Stanley (17:37):
Yeah.
Suzy Gray (17:38):
Andy, what a rich conversation we've had this month on this topic of managing leadership anxiety. Thanks for digging deeper into what it looks like for a leader to do this well. And for our listeners, thanks for listening to this episode of Reverb. If you found it helpful, be sure to leave a review or pass it along to another leader. And as always, subscribe wherever you listen and check out andystanley.com/podcast for more resources to help you go even further faster.