REVERB 26: Beyond High Performance: How Great Leaders Keep Getting Better Transcript

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Suzy Gray (00:03):
Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb, A conversation designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging deeper into this month's topic. I'm your host, Suzy Gray. Last week, Andy sat down with Jason Jagger and talked about what it means to go beyond high performance. It was a really rich conversation, and if you missed it, I would encourage you to go back and listen or even re-listen, because today's conversation is going to build on it. Andy, there's so much that stood out to me from your conversation. I don't think I've taken so many notes on a podcast before

Andy Stanley (00:32):
And I've never heard you laugh so much through the glass.

Suzy Gray (00:35):
There was a lot of laughing.

Andy Stanley (00:36):
I kept looking over there. I think you need thicker glass.

Suzy Gray (00:40):
Could you really hear me?

Andy Stanley (00:41):
Yes.

Suzy Gray (00:42):
Oh, no,

Andy Stanley (00:42):
No. It wasn't distracting. It was just funny. I didn't know we were being that funny.

Suzy Gray (00:48):
It was very funny. I really enjoyed it. But one of the things that really stood out was the conversation that you guys had about before work archetypes.

Andy Stanley (00:56):
Yes.

Suzy Gray (00:56):
He talked about the prisoner, the mercenary, the missionary, and the athlete. What did you take away from that?

Andy Stanley (01:02):
Well, at the top of the conversation, we talked about that, and I mentioned that I feel like I've moved from one to the other, but I didn't explain any more about that.

Suzy Gray (01:10):
I would love to hear, I wanted to go. Can you go deeper into that? Yeah.

Andy Stanley (01:14):
Yeah. And I didn't want to go back and I wanted to let him talk. And again, it really was a fascinating discussion and I did notice you in there taking notes. So for those of you who didn't hear that discussion, so again, the prisoner mindset is, I have to go to work. I'm stuck. Stuck. I got to do this. In some cases, people working two or three jobs. The mercenary is I'll do anything. This is just about making a living. Put me in, coach any company, buy it, sell it, or just switch from company to company to company. It's just I'm a mercenary.

Suzy Gray (01:42):
Give me a paycheck and I'll do it.

Andy Stanley (01:44):
The missionary mindset is a bit, I'm on a mission. I don't ever clock out. I carry this with me sometimes either activists, oftentimes it's people that do what I do. In fact, the word missionary makes it sound like that should be the one I adopt. And then there's the athlete mindset. And so when we discuss this as a team, the goal is to think like an athlete because an athlete's constantly improving. Athletes compete against themselves, which leads to the question that Jason asked in the book that's so inspiring, compelling, and irritating is not what is the next problem to solve or the next hill decline. But the question is, what are we capable of? And it just blows the lid off of everything. And again, it has led to one of the biggest, in fact, I think what the book led us to organizationally is the biggest initiative we've ever embraced since maybe going multi-campus, which was very disruptive. And then maybe before that starting the organization at all when it was just an idea and we weren't sure what would work, and we sort of staked our livelihoods on this whole thing. And so we're in the middle of that now. But anyway, the challenge for me with the four mindsets is I think for years I naturally leaned into the athlete, get better and better, make the organization better. I need to get better, be a better communicator. But when I read the book with our team at this season of my life, I realized, Andy, I think you've slipped back into the missionary way of thinking, which is we have a cause we're accomplishing something important. And I've allowed the model of our organization to maybe begin to slip into the place where the mission should be. And we're using the word mission in two different ways because you can commit to the model and lose sight of the ultimate, and then you quit improving. You don't quit leading, but you quit asking the bigger question, what could be and should be? What could be and should be, or, I mean, that's sort of my version of what are we capable of

(03:49):
Or what does the world need? And are we capable of addressing something that the world needs? So very convicting and irritating and disturbing, and it made me discontent in all the best kind of ways. And then when our group discussed it, and we kind of took the lid off and looked beyond of what are the problems we're currently solving? What are our current challenges, we decided, Hey, here's what we think we're capable of. Let's go for it.

Suzy Gray (04:14):
Let's go swing for the fences. Yeah,

Andy Stanley (04:15):
Yeah. Swing for the fences. And when you start having that conversation, it is disruptive. It gets you out of the whirlwind of the here and now. Because if you just stay in the whirlwind of here's another Thursday and here's another weekend, another service, you never ask that question. You never ask that. Well, even if you ask it, it's like you move on to the next chapter of the next book and put that one away and let's read the next book.

(04:38):
So it really had a significant impact on our organization and on me as I think about this season, because in some ways I didn't ever disengage, but I have certainly fully engage with this next iteration of what we're doing. So that's a long answer to the question, and I think that's the value of the book. It's disturbing and it makes us appropriately discontent with the status quo, even if we're being successful. And again, nothing mitigates against a vision maybe more than success because success makes us complacent. And complacent is just the beginning of the end. You've crested the hill. So it was great timing for me personally, great timing for the organization to read the book, to move out of the missionary way of thinking back into the what are we capable of and why not try to maximize our potential? And everybody listening who has kids, when you look at your children, this is how you think, isn't it always. We want our kids to maximize our potential. We think we know what they're capable of. Half of parenting is getting them to believe,

Suzy Gray (05:40):
To see it,

Andy Stanley (05:40):
Getting them to see what they're capable of and to reach for it, and not settle for, settle for, settle for. And then we can start living vicariously through them because we felt like we never maximized our potential. So by golly, he is going to be on the travel team because I didn't make whatever it might be

Suzy Gray (06:00):
Yeah, whatever.

Andy Stanley (06:01):
So we understand the dynamic as parents, we understand the dynamic sometimes at looking into other people, but when you internalize that question, what am I capable of? And what am I capable of as a parent, what am I capable of as a husband, as a father? It's inspiring and disturbing.

Suzy Gray (06:19):
And disturbing. Yeah. Well, I actually loved associated with what we're capable of. Jason said on the podcast, this is not a question you answer, it's a question you answer to. Oh my goodness. And I was like,

Andy Stanley (06:33):
Whoa, I got to write that down. I don't even think that's in the

Suzy Gray (06:36):
Book. I don't think that's in the book either.

Andy Stanley (06:37):
You just said it. Yeah. That's why you were in there taking notes.

Suzy Gray (06:39):
I Was.

Andy Stanley (06:40):
And it is. And everybody listening, you get it. You're smart. It is a question you answer too. You feel like there's somebody standing over you saying, Hey, come on. And that's what a coach does. I want to get your full potential out of you. Don't be content with what you're doing because it's better than the people around you. What are you capable of? Just because the biggest, just because you're the best. Just because you're considered an expert in your field because everybody wants to sign up for your class, whatever it might be. Okay, what are you capable of? Now, here's the story. I may have told this before I was in college. I took a speech class with a professor, Dr. Rifkin. Everybody loved Dr. Rifkin

Suzy Gray (07:18):
Still remember his name,

Andy Stanley (07:19):
Georgia State University. A lot of you have done this. You have to do a motivational speech and you have to do a persuasive speech, all the stuff. So I did, I don't know which speech it was, and I thought I killed it. I'm good at this. And there were other people in the class and they were not good at it, so I was better. So I get my paper back because turn something in, and I just remember there was a B minus, and I'm like, I saw one of my neighbor's papers and they got a better grade. And I'm like, my speech was

Suzy Gray (07:54):
So much better.

Andy Stanley (07:54):
So much better. So arrogant, confident me, waited around and I walked up to Dr. Rifkin's desk. And so Dr. Rifkin, I mean, I don't know how I asked the question, but essentially I verbalized, okay, I'm playing the comparison game here, a B minus, essentially. He said, you're winging it. You're better than that. I'm like, oh. And see what else do I remember from Georgia State University? Virtually nothing but this moment, he called my bluff. He's like, I'm not grading you against the other people in the class. I'm grading you against what I think your potential is. I will never forget that moment. And he called me out. So again, it's not a question we answer. It's a question we answer to, am I doing what I'm capable of? Am I doing my best or am I just looking around doing better than the people around me,

Suzy Gray (08:46):
Around me?

Andy Stanley (08:46):
And there's a flip side. There are always going to be people. And this is because of my personality. I struggle with this as an Enneagram one. I don't want to ever try something I can't be great at.

(08:57):
There's so much fear. And I watch my kids who are not Enneagram ones try everything. And I'm just always amazed. I would get nervous on their behalf when they would try something new. But what if you, I don't know that you can. I don't think you can be great at this. Why are you trying? Don't? Exactly. Which is terrible parenting. And I clamp down Cassandra. She didn't let me do that, but that was my internal fear. But anyway, so the flip side is depending on your personality, when you realize, okay, I can't be the best at something, somebody's always going to be better than me, so why try? This question calls you out of that as well. Hey, no, no, no. I am not asking you. What are you capable of compared to anybody else? What are you capable of? Because just human nature, when we are maximizing our potential, there is energy, there's internal inspiration, there's internal motivation.

(09:49):
And again, we don't know what we're capable of until we ask the question. So again, we have to be careful when it comes to the comparison game. The comparison game can motivate me to coast because well, look, we're killing it. We're better than the comparison game can cause me to allow other people's success to shut me down or to cause me not to even try or not to try to maximize my potential because oh, well, whatever. So this question, it's for everybody. And one of the things he said that was so interesting is that they chose the title of the book Beyond High Performance. He said, because everybody in marketplace world, which is who the book is written for, they all kind of think they're high performers. So they had to title it not how to be a high performer. It's like, oh, I don't need to read that. I'm a high performer. No, it's beyond high performance. Again, the question is what are you capable of?

Suzy Gray (10:42):
Yeah. I loved also in that part of the conversation, he talked about always rest, but never coast.

Andy Stanley (10:47):
Yeah

Suzy Gray (10:48):
It goes exactly to what you were saying. It's like

Andy Stanley (10:50):
Is it in the book? Whenever you're coasting, remember you can only coast downhill,

Suzy Gray (10:54):
Downhill.

Andy Stanley (10:54):
Yeah. You can coast for... Momentarily you can coast uphill. But if you're coasting, just remember

Suzy Gray (10:59):
The direction you going.

Andy Stanley (11:00):
You're not plateaued. You are coasting downhill. So,

Suzy Gray (11:04):
Well, one of the other areas, I don't know if we talked about it on the podcast or it was from the book, but he says that some leaders only look like they're growing, that they're like, oh yeah, I'm growing. I have a growth mindset. He said, some leaders only look like they are. And he calls this idea a false growth mindest.

Andy Stanley (11:22):
Yeah.

Suzy Gray (11:23):
It looks good on the surface like faux leather, but when you get close, it's really, really hollow. What do you think the difference looks like in leadership?

Andy Stanley (11:31):
Well, I think one of the things he said in this regard, or I think it's related to this, he talked about not simply being the expert in the teacher, but being the learner. And if we're not learning, if we're not actively learning, and I love what he said about modeling, learning.

Suzy Gray (11:49):
Oh, modeling learning.

Andy Stanley (11:49):
Don't just model teaching, model learning. That's the growth mindset. The growth mindset is I'm still curious. I'm not bothered too much when I realize I'm wrong because when I realize I'm wrong, then I'm not wrong anymore. And that's progress and that's growth. The person that resist ideas, contrary to what they've always believed, they're basically, oftentimes we're defending being wrong. Nobody wants to be wrong, but oh my goodness, being right sounds to discover I'm wrong, is threatening. So I'm just going to defend current reality. So again, the whole idea of staying curious as we talk about on the podcast sometimes start with wow, not how in terms of listening to our children, listening to people in the marketplace, listening to people we work with. So yeah, the fake growth mindset is the one that's, I'm always teaching and let's read a book together. But if I'm not learning and if I'm not willing to let the people around me know I'm still learning and that I'm still discovering I'm wrong, I'm not modeling learning, and you're not a learning organization.

(12:49):
And as I said, when I was with Jason from the very beginning, we decided we want to be a learning organization. We are going to bring in authors. Back then, we just had to bring in the books. We couldn't afford to bring in the authors, we're bringing in the books and let the experts challenge us. And now we're at the place where we're able to bring in the authors and the books because we want our folks in our organization to be learners. That's learning and growth go together and the ability to say we're wrong. The ability to say that other organization's doing it better than us. We need to quit this and do what they're doing and not feel like, oh, pride of authorship to be married to pride of authorship. That's always a problem. Then that's a lid.

Suzy Gray (13:29):
I was gonna say,

Andy Stanley (13:29):
That's personally just

Suzy Gray (13:30):
Tap your organization

Andy Stanley (13:31):
Or a lid organizationally. So all of that was very challenging in a good way.

Suzy Gray (13:35):
Yeah, I loved the part. It was actually the very end of your conversation. In my copious notes, you were talking about being a learner, that you have to be a learner and you have to model learning. And then he said, but you also have to have imagination. He said, I love affair with the future. It's romantic and love creates energy, and that creates energy and momentum for what's possible ahead of you. And I thought that was such an interesting Mary to the idea of learning. So it's not just you've got to learn but also have an imagination of what's possible.

Andy Stanley (14:08):
Yeah. What could be and should be.

Suzy Gray (14:09):
What could be and should be.

Andy Stanley (14:10):
Yeah. That's vision.

Suzy Gray (14:11):
That's vision. Yeah.

Andy Stanley (14:12):
Again, success mitigates against that because well look what we're doing and then we get focused on the next problem to solve rather than what we're capable of. And I mentioned in my conversation with him when I was talking to Jason on his podcast, I think I told this story that we were talking about vision and two weeks ago, Holly, who runs this campus, directs this campus, asked me to do a short talk for our NPCC staff on vision. She said, would you talk a little bit about maintaining vision and casting vision? I'm like, oh yeah, I've written two books on this. So I sit down to kind of put some notes together, even though I've talked on it before, but it's been a long time. So I started rereading my little book making vision stick, little tiny book to just kind of get my head back in it. And I was so convicted by my book. Your own book? Yes. Because again, it's so easy for the model to we accidentally marry the model, run the model, because we're busy and lose sight of what could be and should be, which means you're going to lose sight of what are we capable of.

(15:14):
So it was very convicting. So I told our staff, I'm like, Hey, I have to make a confession. I read my little book and I was very convicted. I feel like I've taken my foot off the gas. I've slipped from athlete to missionary to a missionary mindset in terms of let's just accomplish the mission. So it's easy to go there. And so I acknowledged that, and they all laughed at me for being convicted by my own book. And then I talked about what is a vision and why it's important and why it's important at every level in the organization, not just a macro vision for the entire organization. And I inspired myself.

Suzy Gray (15:46):
I'm so glad.

Andy Stanley (15:46):
I was back in the game.

Suzy Gray (15:48):
I'm so glad.

Andy Stanley (15:48):
It's good to be an athlete once again.

Suzy Gray (15:50):
Well, I think it's so important. I mean, the idea of imagination gives you something to move toward. That vision gives you something to move towards.

Andy Stanley (15:59):
Yes, it's inspiring and what needs to happen and what needs to change. We want to give our lives to something bigger than us. And I said this last week when talking to Jason, but again, when we ask the question personally or organizationally, what are we capable of? And then we shoot for what we're capable of. We make people better. We potentially make the world better because we're addressing something that needs to be done that we feel like we have the capability to do. And in most cases, whether it's marketplace or nonprofit, it doesn't just positively impact the people who are a part of accomplishing something we're capable of. It impacts the end user. Whether the end user is a service that we're providing or a gift that we're providing to a community, everybody wins when we begin to ask that question and answer it and then have the courage to engage. And it is disruptive to engage with an answer to that question. Because when you ask, what am I capable of? All of a sudden I'm challenged to do things differently or to do something we haven't been doing, which is disruptive, but change is always disruptive.

Suzy Gray (17:10):
Well, and I think what you said is important of it's not just having the vision and asking that question, but it's also having the courage to move into it.

Andy Stanley (17:17):
Yes. Right.

Suzy Gray (17:18):
Because sometimes it's risky.

Andy Stanley (17:20):
Yeah. Well, what we decided to go after risky pursue recently Risky. Yeah. I mean, we had to step back and say, here's what we're capable of, but we can't afford it.

(17:30):
So we got to step back and raise a bunch of money in order to accomplish what we feel like we're capable of. And it was disruptive in all the best kinds of ways. And then when we began to cast this vision to our entire organization, to our congregations, they stepped up like, yeah, it's about time. We want want to do something big. You just haven't asked us. And I'm like, again, I wasn't applying some of the things that I've taught for years, but here we go.

Suzy Gray (17:59):
Well, to end on the Helen Keller quote, I love what Jason mentioned. Life is either a daring adventure or it's nothing. Watching you in this last year and a half choose a daring adventure and bringing the whole organization along has been very inspiring. So I'm glad you asked what we're capable of.

Andy Stanley (18:17):
Yeah, well, you've been a big part of that, and it's going to be interesting to see what happens. And a lot of it's already happening. Here we go. So we'll see.

Suzy Gray (18:24):
Yeah, very excited

Andy Stanley (18:25):
To be continued.

Suzy Gray (18:26):
To be continued. Well, what a great couple of conversations about this beyond high performance material. Andy, thank you for the conversation. And thanks to you for listening to this episode of Reverb. If you found it helpful, be sure to leave a review or pass it along to another leader. And as always, subscribe wherever you listen. And check out the Andy stanley.com/podcast website for more resources to help you go even further faster.