Great Leaders Trust Their Gut, Part 1 Transcript

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Andy Stanley (00:02):
 Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy Stanley. And before we jump into today's episode, I want to tell you about a special offer from our friends at Belay. As a leader, you don't have time to waste, you know that. So it's important to identify blind spots when it comes to efficiency and our productivity. And that is where Belay can help. Belay's vetted US-based virtual assistants, accounting professionals, and marketing assistants are personally matched to your unique needs to help you reclaim time and energy for what matters most. To get you started, Belay is offering their resource five blind spots that sync your leadership for free. Sometimes the habits that cause leaders to sync are the ones we can't see. And if you aren't sure what your blind spots are, and let's face it, that's the nature of a blind spot, or you just want to catch them before they happen, this resource is for you.

(01:00):
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(01:23):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further, faster. Today is the seventh episode of a special series based on my recently released book, What Great Leaders Do. And hosting the conversation is 15 year veteran or victim of my attempts to lead this organization, Holly Goddard. So welcome back.

Holly Goddard (01:44):
Well, thank you. Glad to be here. Hardly a victim. Honestly, I'm so glad that I've been in this organization for 15 years. I feel like I've been in just a leadership laboratory. And what we're talking about today, you know I'm excited about this.

Andy Stanley (01:55):
Well, you have some stories to share this time and next time related to this.

Holly Goddard (01:58):
I do. I've learned a lot around this topic and so I don't know if I would've learned it without this organization. I certainly wouldn't have had the language to talk about it.

Andy Stanley (02:07):
And that's a good point because we've learned, even in talking to other organizations, organizational language is so important because concepts are paragraphs, but when you can reduce an important principle or concept to a statement and everybody in the organization's like, "Oh yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about." So powerful.

Holly Goddard (02:25):
It becomes exportable. You start to learn how to behave and be able to practice it.

Andy Stanley (02:29):
Yeah. Sometimes I wonder if we should have a glossary of terms or statements for new employees to say, "When you hear this, it means that."

Holly Goddard (02:35):
Here's the new language.

Andy Stanley (02:37):
You're going to pick it up over time, but let's just -

Holly Goddard (02:39):
Here's the shortcut.

Andy Stanley (02:40):
Yeah.

Holly Goddard (02:40):
Well, let's give the audience the shortcut. Today we're talking about essential number four, which is great leaders trust their gut. And this all comes from your new book, What Great Leaders Do subtitle Seven Essentials for Enduring Impact. We've been walking through this. Today we're going to talk about trusting your gut. And here's the thing about that. It sounds subjective, but I'm learning that if you've learned to harness it, it could be a superpower. But here's the thing, this gets us in trouble sometimes because it's quishy. It's kind of quishy language like, oh, I have a feeling. I have a hunch. I'm going to trust my gut on that one. So let's talk about that today because we need to learn how to leverage intuition and really learn how powerful that is.

Andy Stanley (03:20):
And we'll get into this to distinguish between an opinion and intuition. Because Sandra says, "Andy, you have an opinion about everything." And I'm like, "Well, doesn't everybody?" And she's like, "No, they don't have an opinion about everything." So when you're a leader, your opinions, they weigh a lot, but opinion and intuition are two different things. So let's back up. So here's a distinction that helped me when I first discovered this. There's a difference between instinct and intuition. Instinct is connected to the physical world. Maybe the best illustration for some of us is you're flying somewhere and suddenly without warning, the jet hits turbulence. And everybody in their seat on that flight, their instinct kicks in. Some people scream, some people some people tense up. We have no control over that. It is a physical reaction to the physical world. Intuition is completely different. Intuition is cognitive.

(04:16):
Intuition is stored knowledge that we don't know we have until something in a conversation, something in a problem that needs to be solved, something in a decision that needs to be made triggers our intuition. So intuition, one way of understanding it, it's knowing without knowing how we know, but we just know. And great leaders learn to harness this. They learn to differentiate between opinion and intuition, but once they know their lane, and we'll talk about how to discover that in just a minute, once you know your intuition lane based on past experience, stored past experience, things you've learned through the years that you don't even know that you know until there's a decision to be made or there's a problem to be solved and you know it immediately, you don't know how you know it. And again, where you are in the organization, we'll get to this as well, determines generally how we respond.

(05:06):
So let me read two statements from the book. This helps. In terms of intuition, it's knowing without knowing why. We experience it as a sudden clarity and we experience it as sudden clarity combined with unusual confidence.

Holly Goddard (05:21):
See, I know what you're saying when you say that.

Andy Stanley (05:23):
Especially the unusual confidence.

Holly Goddard (05:24):
Yes. It's just all of a sudden you sit up and you're just like, I have something to say about this.

Andy Stanley (05:28):
Yeah. I know we're moving in the wrong direction or this is exactly right. There's clarity and confidence, which is different than an opinion. Again, if we're careful, one other statement from the book, this is accumulated experience based insight applied to a current question or problem faster than our conscious reasoning can explain it. So I read somewhere, somebody said it's like having the solution to an equation without the equation. You don't even need the equation. So this is very powerful and this is why successful leaders are often make quick decisions and good decisions. And as we're going to talk about next time, when a leader can understand and learn to leverage their intuition and leverage the intuition of other people in the organization, you're going to make faster decisions ahead of the competition and you're going to make better decisions. So that's what we're talking about.

(06:23):
And everybody listening has experienced this and has experienced other people's intuition. But again, once you have language around this and once you give people in the organization language around this, it really is a superpower because intuition is a superpower. And other people are like, "How did you know that? Or how did you know that so quickly?" And you don't know how you know, but you know and you're confident.

Holly Goddard (06:47):
Well, I love how you said you have an intuition lane because to me that's how it's different than an opinion. It's like you know your lane for accumulated experience, which you ran into this early in your leadership. You tell a story in the book where you had a lunch with John Maxwell and before you even had probably these words about trusting your gut, you experienced an experienced leader doing that with you. Will you tell that story?

Andy Stanley (07:11):
Yeah. And I go into more detail in the book, so I'll try to make this quick. This is 28 years ago maybe, 29 years ago. We had just purchased our first piece of property for our church. We had some debt. We were trying to decide what to build. We had an architect, but in church world, the first thing you have to decide is how large of an auditorium do we want to build? Because the auditorium for the Sunday morning service determines the children's space, ratios for children, staff. I mean, you get that and then you go from there in terms of what you design.

Holly Goddard (07:40):
And that feels like a gamble. You're kind of guessing, right?

Andy Stanley (07:42):
It's a total gamble, especially since we didn't have any members. We weren't even meeting in the county that we wanted to put this church in. I mean, again, that's more background information. Anyway, so John Maxwell had just moved his entire team to Atlanta, and I ran into him accidentally in a restaurant. This isn't relevant, but I was in a restaurant with another pastor and we were talking and suddenly I hear this voice in the restaurant and I stop. I said, "Hey, wait." His name was Randy. I said, Randy, John Maxwell is in this restaurant.

Holly Goddard (08:14):
You just knew his voice?

Andy Stanley (08:15):
His voice. All I'd listened to is his tapes. He had this tape series for leadership. And I stood up and I'm looking around and I'd never met him before. And I grew up with a famous dad, and so I knew what it was like for people to interrupt a meal. So I knew better. Wh did I do?

Holly Goddard (08:29):
Went over there.

Andy Stanley (08:29):
I walked right over there and interrupted his meal because it's John Maxwell. Anyway, time went by, met John, invited him to lunch, and I said, "I do have an agenda for this lunch." And I didn't tell him what it was because I just had one question. I want to meet with John because before John was known as a leadership guru, he was a pastor of a large church, several churches. So he had both the leadership gear, the communication gear, and pastoring experience. And his pastoring experience is what gave him the intuition that I triggered with my question.

(09:01):
So anyway, we sit down, the wait staff comes over and takes our drink order. We both ordered water. We hadn't even ordered lunch yet. And I said, "John," I said, "I know you're busy, so I'll just get right to it. I want to know how large of an auditorium we should build because I don't know." And I had all this information. I had demographic information. I had our P&L. I just had -

Holly Goddard (09:23):
So much data.

Andy Stanley (09:24):
So much data because I knew he was going to ask so many questions. What if I'm going to ask him this question? So I said, "So I want to know how large of an auditorium we should build." And he immediately, I mean, he didn't miss a beat. He immediately said, "Well, how long do you plan to stay?" And I thought, "What in the world does that have to do with how large of an auditorium we build?" But he knew. My question triggered his intuition. Well, what I said literally was, "I plan to stay here the rest of my life. This is my life's work." He said, "Well, then build it as large as you can."

Holly Goddard (09:58):
Wow.

Andy Stanley (09:58):
We hadn't even ordered lunch.

Holly Goddard (10:00):
Yeah. Good meeting.

Andy Stanley (10:01):
And he connected two things. I would never have connected my tenure and what we should build again. But what gave him that intuition was not only his experience as a leader, but his experience specifically as a pastor. And he was exactly right. And so we built as large as we could build. And then when we built it, I though, oh no, we've overbuilt. This is how foolish we have been. But anyway, the story goes from there. But again, my question triggered his intuition and it gave me confidence to make the decision we did because he had so much confidence. So it wasn't my intuition. It was really piggybacking off of his.

Holly Goddard (10:37):
Well, you experienced that definition, the sudden clarity combined with the confidence. It's like he knew.

Andy Stanley (10:42):
He was so confident. It was like, silly question.

Holly Goddard (10:45):
Yeah.

Andy Stanley (10:45):
Build it as big as you can. So anyway.

Holly Goddard (10:47):
Okay. That's an incredible example of seeing it at play and then learning, okay, that's what that looks like. So I remember when I was a young leader, I though, I don't know if I have an opinion. Young leader, I would sit in meetings and they would turn to me and say, what do you think?

Andy Stanley (11:01):
This is before you came to work here.

Holly Goddard (11:03):
Yes. This is my first few years working professionally, and I had no experience. I had been a college student. That was my experience and it wasn't very relevant in the boardroom. And so they would say, what do you think? And I would just literally feel blank like, I don't know. And I though, I don't have a gut. I don't have an opinion. So fast-forward, years of leading, go for 10 years. I've led all kinds of teams, all kinds of situations. I had been in this organization for a while, and I moved in this organization from one division to the next. I had a new boss. I've been there a couple months. And in one of our one-on-ones, I thought, I see what some of the holes are around here. And I had proposed some strategic objectives, a way we could restructure the team and a few people that need to be moved around on different seats of the bus.

Andy Stanley (11:47):
On your team. You said all this to your boss.

Holly Goddard (11:49):
Yes. I took it to my one-on-one thinking he's going to be like, wow, thank you. I've been missing this. And he wasn't. He was like, this is not your job, but this is where I discovered -

Andy Stanley (12:01):
I'm glad you're not naming names.

Holly Goddard (12:03):
No.

Andy Stanley (12:03):
But it was a long time ago.

Holly Goddard (12:04):
Right. Well, he was incredible. He was incredible. It wasn't my job. Honestly, the biggest lesson was I had an intuition for organizational strategy alignment and execution. I didn't know that about myself until I got into a new environment, and that's just what I saw automatically.

Andy Stanley (12:20):
And you were confident. You knew.

Holly Goddard (12:22):
Yes. I knew if we made some of these strategic changes, we'd be headed in a different direction. And I don't even know how I knew that. I had just shown up on the scene.

Andy Stanley (12:31):
Well, this brings up a really, really important part about intuition. And for our audience, this is so important. And I don't know how the conversation went, we don't have to go back there, but if he or she had pressed you, how do you know? How do you know? I mean, you're giving me all the conclusions, you're giving me here's the solutions. What's the equation? How did you get to this? You would not probably have been able... Whatever you said after that might've been somewhat helpful, but it didn't matter. It wasn't the equation that got you there. You just intuitively knew. And this is what makes intuition, and this is so important, this is what makes intuition, especially in organizational life, so fragile because when somebody has an idea, or especially if they're so confident, we're like, "Give me the background." But oftentimes the person with intuition, the intuition we should listen to, even our own, they can't give you the background.

(13:23):
They can't give you the equation, but they do know the answer. They have the solution. And so creating an organizational culture that creates space for intuition is absolutely critical. And the point leader determines the appetite that the organization has for intuitive leadership. But you find any great organization, you're going to find leaders at the top who've learned to trust their gut and learn to differentiate between their opinions, which they're free to share and their intuition.

Holly Goddard (13:51):
Okay. That's so important because it is just this mysterious thing that shows up.

Andy Stanley (13:55):
It is mysterious, but it's not magical or mystical. It is cognitive. It is based on lived experience.

Holly Goddard (14:00):
Okay. So let's put ourselves in a meeting situation because we all sit in meetings every week and let's pretend we're in a meeting and this thing is happening. Something doesn't feel right to you, but you don't have the data. So what does it sound like to speak up in that meeting? What do you do with that?

Andy Stanley (14:16):
Well, here's an important point too that we may come back to later, but I want to say it now. If you're the point leader in the meeting, in other words, if you're the one with most of the authority, you need to reserve or save your intuition till last. And this is very hard for me. In fact, even preparing for this conversation, I though, I'm not that good at this because when an intuitive solution or thought or step hits you, it hits so hard internally and you're so confident, it's hard not to just blurt it out. Well, when the point leader does that, it sounds like the decision is made. Okay, Andy said the da, da, da. He's so confident. He's been here longer. Why even talk about it? So if you're the point leader, you need to save your intuitive insight till last, which is hard to do because that way you're creating space.

(15:09):
So back to your question, you present intuitive ideas or intuitive solutions within the context of this is my intuition. It's sort of like, don't ask me how and don't ask me why and don't ask me for steps, but I feel like I have a hunch. I wrote some things down. My gut tells me, something tells me, I have a feeling that, but don't ask me why. Don't ask me to prove it or to substantiate it. And in an organization that values intuition, there's space for that to just sit there and be part of the conversation without pressing someone to give you the step. And think about this, Holly, the major breakthroughs, the big ideas, the paradigm shifts, when those things are first introduced, whatever they are, there are never steps. The how-to isn't there. If the how-to was there, it would already have been done, right?

(16:00):
So the big shifts, the big changes, the things that make or break an industry or a company sometimes always begin with a solution without an equation. And the organizations that allow those things to sit and percolate and don't remove them off the table because we didn't have a roadmap, that allows those ideas to actually sit there long enough. And then eventually the equation becomes clear after the solution. But this is that part, I was going to say it's not intuitive. It isn't intuitive unless you learn to value intuition and recognize.

Holly Goddard (16:33):
Well, it's uncomfortable though. That is so encouraging because I feel like that happens to me a lot. I'll see a solution, but the steps and the how, it's like I feel like I'm wandering in the woods.

Andy Stanley (16:43):
And to your point, and some people aren't going to, in a meeting, express their intuition because all eyes will be on them and they're expected to be able to give step-by-step or why or substantiate it. So they remain quiet, which means some of the best ideas around the table may never be expressed if we don't create intuition matters here zones. In this conversation, intuition matters. So anyway.

Holly Goddard (17:10):
Well, I love this illustration that you have in the book because you say a great question can trigger intuition. And you tell a story about when that happened to you.

Andy Stanley (17:18):
Yeah. So one more story. It's kind of related to the first one. So we finally got our building planned a few months later. We have plans for building and we were going to build, again, I go into way more detail in the book. I'll make it quick. We had two phases. We're going to build a first phase and then a second phase. First phase, auditorium, some support space. A second phase, expand two different phases because we didn't have any money and we hadn't even moved into the first phase. We didn't know for sure if this was going to work. We were out kind of out in the middle of nowhere back then. So I'll never forget this. It was dark, so it was late in the afternoon or early evening. We're in a construction trailer and we had two or three of our elders, people from our board.

(17:57):
I was there. Our architect was there. The contractor and two or three of his folks were there. And so we've got the plans laid out and before we would press go, before you press go, they wanted us, and this is normal, to initial every page of phase one because that would give them permission to go forward with phase one. And we couldn't come back later and say, no, that's not what we meant. So we're so excited. We're about to start the big yellow machinery. We go through and I think two or three of us were initialing all the pages, big thick document, all these blueprints. So we finish up and I'm like, okay, it's dark, ready to go home. Everybody's kind of staying farewells. And the first phase was there and the second phase was underneath, but we only signed off on that first phase.

(18:42):
And we're about to leave and Reggie Campbell, one of my mentors from way back, we're about to leave and Reggie says, "Hey, before we go, Andy, can I ask you a question?" And the trailer gets quiet. I mean, we're all saying goodbye. We're done. And he's going to ask me a question in front of everybody. Now, our audience doesn't know Reggie Campbell. When Reggie Campbell asks you a question, you have an instinctive reaction because one of his favorite questions, we would sit down and Reggie would say, "Andy, what do you hope I don't ask you about?"

Holly Goddard (19:11):
Oh, you're like, "Oh gosh."

Andy Stanley (19:12):
Yeah. I'm like, "No, no, no, that's cheating. You got to dig. You got to ask me 12. We can't do..." That was Reggie. "Andy, can I ask you a question? "I said," Sure. "He says," I want you to imagine that we've just finished our first Sunday morning services in the brand new building. "I'm like," Okay. "And he said," I want you to imagine now. This is in front of seven or eight men that most of whom I don't know. "And I want you to imagine now you're walking to your car. What do you think? And immediately, Holly, what came to my mind, and I said it out loud, I said," I think, I'll think I wish we had built the second phase.

Holly Goddard (19:48):
"Oh, wow.

Andy Stanley (19:49):
Now, I had been the proponent of phase one only because of how much it cost and we didn't know. And out of my mouth comes, I think I will wish we had built the second phase.

Holly Goddard (19:58):
Did you even know that was there?

Andy Stanley (19:59):
No. This was the brilliance of Reggie Campbell. So what happened was, looking back, and he and I talked about it later, his intuition was we're making a mistake. Now he was a part of our board. So he'd been in all the meetings where we decided what are we going to build? How much is it going to cost? And he had expressed his opinion early on in some of those meetings, but he was the outlier. He was the contrarian. So he kind of went with the team. But as we're about to pull the trigger, he just couldn't remain silent. But here's what's so brilliant. This is such a great lesson. Instead of confronting me like," Andy, before we do this, are you sure? "I'm like," Of course we're sure. We've had all these meetings. "He lobbed in a question. This a little bit of a different topic, but this is so important for leaders. A question is an invitation. A question is an invitation. An instruction is different than an invitation. So if he had suggested something, that would feel like an instruction. Here's what I think you should do. But a question is an invitation.

(20:59):
So that question kept me open to experience my intuition. I knew we were going to be a big church. We were going to grow fast and we were going to wish we'd build that second phase. But honestly, that had never... Again, I was the proponent for one phase only. Let's be financially responsible, not take unnecessary risk. And so into that story, five, 10 minutes later, we are initialing the second phase in that meeting.

Holly Goddard (21:27):
Just like that.

Andy Stanley (21:27):
And we built both and never looked back and never regret it. So again, that's the power of a person with intuition who is patient enough to realize there's a right way and a wrong way. But he was confident, but he lobbed in a question and it was the right decision.

Holly Goddard (21:45):
Well, I think my biggest takeaway is what John Maxwell and Reggie both did is they had a gut answer that they could have just told you. And to your point, they asked you a question that activated that right side of your brain. For him telling you to imagine what the outcome and what you would be feeling and thinking, he took you out of the data, out of the logical, out of the concrete, which he could have just told you his opinion. Okay, that's amazing. So that's exactly what we're talking about, what it feels like to trust your gut. But okay, this is tricky because it doesn't always mean you're right. He happened to be right, but not everybody is and not every time somebody's going to be right. So what is the line? Give us some wisdom. What is useful intuition and what's just uninformed?

Andy Stanley (22:30):
Well, again, it goes back to a leader. There's a humility factor. The humility factor is my opinions are my opinions and my opinions may be right or wrong, but I can't press an opinion if it's not to some extent anchored to my lived experience. Because again, intuition comes from lived experience. One of the ways that we've experienced it here, in fact, we may have mentioned this before, is when we ask couples to do two-to-one mentoring with other couples, with engaged couples. So we'll find a married couples have been married 10 or 15 or 20 years and say, "Hey, would you meet with a couple that's engaged and walked them through this curriculum?" And these couples always say, "Oh, no, no, no, no. We don't have a perfect marriage. We don't know anything about marriage, blah, blah, blah." We're like, "Just try it." And after the first session, they're like, "We know so much about marriage." But they don't know what they know, but they're drawing from their lived experience.

(23:22):
So when a leader understands this is my lane based on my lived experience, I can trust my gut here. Everything else outside of that, I should at least be willing to acknowledge this may be more opinion than intuition. Then you're kind of in your lane. And over time, again, we learn to trust our gut and the humility side of it is I'm not going to get outside of that and force my opinion simply because I'm the leader of the organization or the division, whatever it might be.

Holly Goddard (23:50):
Yeah. We have a friend, Jason Jaggard. He's really good at giving his opinion and staying humble.

Andy Stanley (23:56):
Yeah. How does he say that? It's so cool.

Holly Goddard (23:57):
So he has a line. If he wants to tell you his opinion, he's having a gut instinct, but he knows he doesn't have a lot of experience. He'll say, "Hey, I have low believability in this, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's my observation or here's my gut instinct." But he's saying, "I haven't lived it. I don't have that much experience. Here's what my gut's telling me."

Andy Stanley (24:14):
Yeah. From time to time, I'm invited to speak to corporate audiences and I'm super, super careful. There's a line to where here's what I'm confident about, but you know what you're doing in your world. So I have two or three phrases that allow me to say, "I'm confident this will work. This is an important principle, but I'm not going to tell you how to apply it because you know your world. I don't." So again, there's that line that good leaders are sensitive to.

Holly Goddard (24:39):
So how do we stop ourselves from overcorrecting on this principle? We don't want to double down on every hunch. So what is the balance of intuition and data?

Andy Stanley (24:48):
Well, this is another good point. One of the challenges in our world is because we're so data driven and because we have access to data and data is important when it comes to making decisions, it's easy again for intuition to get swallowed up with all the questions. In the book, I give this formula, and honestly, I just made this up, but I think it's true that in corporate decision making, really any decision making, but within the context of organization, it's this. It's information. You got to have the data. It's information plus intuition. Got to create space for intuition minus ego. It's information. Let's look at reality. Let's gather what we can. Plus intuition. Let's lean into whoever has lived experience within this context, minus ego, which means the leader has to be willing to be wrong. The leader has to be willing to say, "I have a strong feeling, but you know what?

(25:37):
20 minutes later, I think I kind of weigh in heavy, but you're right. So it's minus ego. That's how you make good decisions." So I wrote, "Information and data is critical for testing, clarifying, and understanding what someone's into, how someone's intuition surfaced. The danger is reasoning over or reasoning around an intuitive suggestion or insight." Because again, on this side of the equation, there's all this data. On this side, this person has what seems to be a hunch. So it's like, are you kidding? But it's not allowing ourselves to talk around, work around, or ignore the intuition of the person that has the experience.

Holly Goddard (26:15):
Andy, this has been so helpful. Even having this language around trusting your gut makes such a difference.

Andy Stanley (26:20):
Opinion versus intuition, all that.

Holly Goddard (26:21):
Yes. So before we wrap up, for the leader listening who wants to put something into practice this week, what charge would you give them?

Andy Stanley (26:29):
Good question. I think I would begin with this. Something I say all the time, pay attention to the tension. Pay attention to the tension. If something feels off, pay attention to that. Intuition, remember, is a solution that precedes the equation. So don't reason your way around it. Don't talk yourself out of it. Don't pressure yourself to explain it. Just sit with it. Often the reasoning will follow in time, but even if it doesn't, don't ignore it. You look at something you're discussing with a group and you say, "You know what? That makes sense on paper, but there's just something about it that seems off to me and I'm not sure why." If you're the point leader, again, save your intuition for last. Your words way too much to weigh in early. In my experience, when I don't feel right about the direction the discussion is moving in, I've learned that if I wait long enough, oftentimes somebody else usually speaks up and taps the brakes on the conversation, which oftentimes just confirms what I'm already feeling.

(27:27):
If you're not the point leader in the room, don't allow the fact that you're the contrarian, the outlier to cause you to remain silent. Position your response for what it is, a gut feeling, your intuition. It's okay to know without knowing how you know. It's okay to trust your gut because that's what great leaders do.

Holly Goddard (27:49):
Yep, it sure is. And next time we're going to talk about moving from personal intuition to organizational intuition and how we tap that collective intuition that's all around us all the time. Hey, thanks so much for joining us. Before you go, take a minute to subscribe wherever you access this content. By subscribing, you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep bringing you great content to help you go further, faster. And be sure to visit andystanley.com where you can download the leadership podcast application guide. That's going to include a summary of this episode plus some questions for reflection or group discussion. Well, that's it for this time. We will see you right here next time on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.