Great Leaders Ask Great Question, Part 2 Transcript

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Andy Stanley (00:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further faster. Today is the sixth episode of a special series based on my book, What Great Leaders Do. And leading the conversation is my co-host, Holly Goddard. Holly's been a part of our organization for 15 years. She has led a variety of teams and currently she serves as the chief of staff at our largest campus.

Holly Goddard (00:26):
Yep. Like I always say, so happy to be on the bus and I'm loving these conversations. I'm loving reading this book and processing it with you. And each episode we're highlighting an essential. So we've talked about a couple at this point. We've talked about how the first essential is you got to lead yourself well. And then great leaders, they play to their strengths. And last time we started talking about how great leaders ask great questions. So we're going to pick that up today. We learned last time that you got to create a culture of curiosity. You got to use questions as invitations and that we need to check out what our frequently asked questions are. I still got to do that. But today we're going to get really practical and I love these questions that you give us. You give us three questions that you say these have been chasing you around for years.

Andy Stanley (01:12):
Yeah. One of them almost 40 years I've been asking this question. I know.

Holly Goddard (01:16):
Well, I love that. And you have a couple of these framed in your office. Yeah, they hang there.

Andy Stanley (01:21):
Two of them are framed in my office. They follow me around. And then one of them, as you know, is literally painted on the walls in several of our office suites. So this is real life stuff.

Holly Goddard (01:31):
Yeah. This isn't just stuff you teach. We live by this stuff. It's informed how you think and it informs how our organization thinks. I remember this first one, you emailed this to me years ago and you said, "Hey, you should sit with this question." And now I understand why, because it's a really big question. The first one is this. It says, "What do you believe is impossible to do in your field, but if it could be done, would fundamentally change your business?"

Andy Stanley (01:58):
Yeah. So I bumped into this question. It's not original with me. In 1992, an author named Joel Barker published a book. The first time it was published, it was Future Edge, subtitled Discovering the New Paradigms for Success. Apparently nobody liked that title because they pretty quickly re-released the book under a different title. And so for our podcast listeners, this is a book about paradigms. And a paradigm, as most people know, is a framework that we kind of get locked into and it becomes a framework for problem solving. Every industry has paradigms, families have paradigms. I mean, they're everywhere and they're just assumptions. And sometimes they're assumptions that haven't been questioned for a long time, but again, they become a framework that determine how decisions are made and how problems are solved. It's kind of standard operating procedure. Anyway, so I'm reading this book. I was 33 years old, so it's been a minute.

(02:51):
On page 156 -

Holly Goddard (02:54):
You remember where it was.

Andy Stanley (02:55):
Because that page is so dog eared and there's so many notes in the margin. Page 156 is where I bumped into this question. And Holly, I literally closed the book and then opened a blank page at the beginning of the book and just started taking notes. But anyway, I'm going to read a couple of paragraphs from the book because it kind of sets up the juice in this question. Barker writes this, he talks about paradigm paralysis. He says, "Paradigm paralysis has profound implications for innovation within an organization because internal innovation is difficult to stimulate because a paradigm or a framework is already in place." He says, "So when there's already a paradigm, then we're sort of locked in. We're sort of having to work within this framework." Then he writes this, he says, "Paradigm pliancy, the opposite, is the opposite of paradigm paralysis. It is the purposeful seeking out of new ways of doing things.

(03:51):
It is an active behavior in which you challenge your paradigms on a regular basis by asking the paradigm shift question." And again, this is within the context of questions leaders ask. And then he gives us the paradigm shift question. And this was the question that rocked my world and has been sitting somewhere in my office ever since. Here's the paradigm shift question. You read it earlier. "What do I believe is impossible to do in my field, but if it could be done, would fundamentally change my business? "And I think the reason this captured my attention when it did is that I had discovered, or I didn't have this language, but there was a question I'd been wrestling with in my business, the church business, if you can call it that, that had bugged me for some time. And I though if there was ever a way to do this differently, it would fundamentally change my business.

(04:47):
So I wrote the question down. I did not have an answer. In fact, it really seemed impossible to do. And then a few years later, and I tell the story in the book, a few years later, an opportunity came along. And because that question was front and center for me and our team, we realized this isn't just an opportunity. This may be, this just may be something that formally was considered impossible to do. And as it turned out, it opened up opportunities. Again, we won't go through it today. But anyway, it was so life-changing. I've kept that question front and center. And the reason it's so important for every leader to keep front and center, I think, in my opinion, is in most cases, any individual company or the people listening today are probably not going to be able to crack the nut on the question itself.

(05:35):
But if we're not asking the question, we're not looking for an answer. And when the answer comes along, we won't recognize it. And worse, not only will we not recognize it, we will be critical of it. And he talks about this in the book because it will be outside of our framework. It won't make any sense. That's not how it's done. That's not how we do it. That won't work. And so the other way he says it in the book, he says, "What are the problems all of your peers want to solve, but have it the slightest idea of how to do it?" And the point is, if we're not asking the question, we won't recognize the answer when somebody else comes up with the answer. Because oftentimes, and there are multiple examples of this in the marketplace, the first person to come up with the answer isn't always the one that is able to scale it to the point where they become famous for the answer to the question because discovering it and scaling it are two different things.

(06:34):
So we want to be in a position as organizations to where we're asking that question, whatever that is. And the question is different for different companies and different industries. But again, what do the people who do what you do, what's the question that seems impossible to answer, what's the thing that's impossible to do, but if it could be done, would not tweak, but would fundamentally change your business? It is such a big open-ended, intimidating question.

Holly Goddard (07:01):
Yeah, it's such a big question. I've had to sit with that for weeks and it's really hard to come up with an answer because it kind of breaks your brain a little bit, which is the point.

Andy Stanley (07:10):
It pushes you outside the paradigm because we only ask questions within the framework of possibility. I love this quote, and this is from the book, he's quoting James Baldwin, who said, "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it."

Holly Goddard (07:29):
Yeah, that's the quote that kind of rattled my cage too, because that's why it's important that you learn to think this way, because somebody is. And I love that you're doing that from the top because it allows us as an organization to do that and have those kind of conversations.

Andy Stanley (07:43):
Well, it goes back to what we said last time. This is why curiosity is so important in an organization and we dare not cap curiosity because somebody in a different generation that is not locked into our framework. And this is why one of our values from the very beginning has been listen to outsiders, listen to outsiders, meaning we work within the framework of what we do as an organization, but there are people who are in different organizations who may have solutions to our problems, but because they're outside of our framework. So listen to outsiders, listen to outsiders. So anyway, it's a big intimidating question.

Holly Goddard (08:20):
It is, but a really necessary one. It'll stretch your thinking. Okay, this next one, this one will force you to get really honest. The second question is this, what would the next leader do? That's kind of hard to ask. So why did you embrace this question?

Andy Stanley (08:37):
Yeah. So once again, this question came from a book I read. I was in a bookstore, I'm in the leadership management section, just looking for something to read. And I saw this title, Only the Paranoid Survive.

Holly Goddard (08:47):
That's a great title.

Andy Stanley (08:48):
It's a great title. Yeah. Who wouldn't pick that up? The subtitle, How to Exploit the Crisis Points That Challenge Every Company by Andrew Grove or Andy Grove, as his friends referred to him. So Andy Grove was Intel, the chip maker's third employee and became Intel's third CEO. And so this is the story of him, again, taking Intel out of their core business into a different business. And here's the backstory. This is amazing. In the 1970s, Intel owned almost 100% of the computer chip manufacturing in the world, an American-based company in the world. Of course, in the 70s, there wasn't the demand that there is today for that kind of thing. Then in the 80s, the Japanese entered the market. Several Japanese companies entered the market, but they had the backing of the Japanese government. So they had endless funding just pouring into these small Japanese startups.

(09:44):
So now Andy Grove and his team find themselves competing basically with the nation of Japan in terms of financing and they can't keep up. They would make their chips faster. Japan makes them even faster. Intel makes their smaller. Japanese make them even smaller. So in the book he says they flooded the market and the handwriting was on the wall. There was just no way to keep up. And then he writes this, he confesses as he says it. He says, "In hindsight, our priorities were formed by our identity. After all, memories were us." So this is all they knew were making memory chips. They can't keep up. So there's an identity crisis. We'll come back to that in a minute because their whole identity as a company was around a specific product, which is always a problem. And then at this part of the book, after years and years of all this struggle, he writes the following.

(10:38):
I just want to read this and this leads to where the question came from. He writes, "I remember a time in the middle of 1985 after this aimless wandering had been going on for almost a year. I was in my office in Santa..." His offices were in Santa Clara, California. "I was in my office with Intel's chairman and CEO, Gordon Moore, and we were discussing our quandary. So they can't figure out what to do. They've tried everything. He writes," Our mood was downbeat. I looked out the window at the Ferris wheel of the great American amusement park revolving in the distance. And then I turned back to Gordon and I asked, and the following few sentences are literally what are printed and framed in my office. They have been chasing me around since I was in my 30s when I read this book. Here's what he writes.

(11:26):
He says to Gordon Moore, the CEO, he says, "If we got kicked out and the board brought in a new CEO, what do you think he would do? "And Gordon answered immediately. This is what he writes. Gordon answered without hesitation. When he asked that question, what would the next group do? There was immediate clarity. Gordon answered without hesitation. He would get us out of memories. The new guy who came in to take our place would get us out of our fundamental business. Then he writes, "I stared at him numb and then said, Why shouldn't you and I walk out the door, come back in and do it ourselves?" So that little exchange has been printed and following me around. And that's where the question, what would the next leader do comes from? Because the next leader has clarity that the current leader oftentimes doesn't have because we get so emotionally connected to our product, our company, our model and everything else.

(12:25):
So this question, I think more than any other question has provided me with the clarity and honestly, Holly, the courage I've needed to make some of my most difficult decisions, especially as it relates number one to personnel changes and number two, to letting go of ideas and things we've done for years that I love because I helped create them, but they're no longer as effective as they used to be. And as soon as I asked the question, Hey, if somebody came in without that emotional attachment either to these people or to these ideas or even to our whole model, what would they do? In fact, here's something else he writes. He writes, "People who have no emotional stake in a decision can see what needs to be done sooner."

Holly Goddard (13:08):
That's such a big deal.

Andy Stanley (13:09):
I know. So what would the next leader do? I know what the next leader would do. Why don't we walk out the door, come back in and just do it? Terrifying clarity is the only way I know how to describe it.

Holly Goddard (13:22):
Well, what's crazy about this question is it's not like you're searching for ideas. It's not your intellect. It's your emotional depth and regulation and EQ that has to be activated in this moment. When I hear that story, I'm just imagining him gazing out the window like all my ideas have run out.

Andy Stanley (13:41):
Right. Yeah, that's what they did. They were basically going to walk away from who they were and what they were known for in the world. In fact, we won't talk about it today, but in the book, I explore this further, he talks about the mistake they made was that they got their identity wrapped up with a specific product and a specific model. And whenever organizations get their identity wrapped up with something temporary, the clock is ticking backwards. And this is what he lost sight of, but fortunately that conversation changed everything.

Holly Goddard (14:12):
Well, that's the biggest temptation is to get your identity wrapped up in the organization or in your work. And so this question helps you zoom out and watch it like it's playing out on a stage.

Andy Stanley (14:22):
Yeah. I want to just read one other paragraph. This is kind of how the story ended because there's a lesson here as well, and I'm just going to read this. This is from the book. "Grove's decision to get Intel out of the chip business positioned Intel to devote their energy to the emerging microprocessor market. By 1992, Intel became the largest semiconductor manufacturing company in the world, even larger than the same Japanese companies that had driven them out of the memory chip business." And then he writes this, this is such a takeaway. He writes, "Had we dithered longer, we could have missed our chance at all of this."

Holly Goddard (15:00):
Wow.

Andy Stanley (15:00):
His point was if we had just said, "No, no, we are in the memory chip business, we are going to stay in it." He said, "If we had not made that difficult decision, we would've missed the next opportunity." And again, this just goes back to as leaders in the organization, we have to love what our organization accomplishes in the world and what it does for the world more than anybody in the organization or more than any idea in the organization or even any product in the organization. And as a founder, that is terrible.

Holly Goddard (15:34):
Oh, it's got to be difficult.

Andy Stanley (15:35):
Yes, because we are emotionally, emotionally attached. Again, that's why this quote, "People who have no emotional stake in a decision can see what needs to be done sooner." What would the next leader do?

Holly Goddard (15:46):
So this question will save you and lead you to objectivity.

Andy Stanley (15:50):
Yes.

Holly Goddard (15:51):
Okay. Well, the next leader, they're probably not going to change the mission. That's probably going to stay intact on whatever you're leading, but oftentimes they like to change the way. And maybe it's time to change the way that you accomplish the mission. In fact, you have a phrase that we say this all the time around here. We say marry the mission, date the model. So tell our listeners, what does that mean and how do you know when it's time to break up with the model?

Andy Stanley (16:14):
Yeah. So yeah, it's marry the mission, date the model. Because every organization was begun to accomplish a specific mission and the organizational model or the product or the approach or whatever you call it is simply a means to an end. And what happens is we fall in love with the means rather than the end because that's what we do every day. This is what we create, this is what we produce, this is what we're known for. This is what our reputation is built around. So it's easy to fall in love with the means to the end and lose sight of the end, the end being the mission. What are we here to do? What are we here to accomplish? How do we make the world a better place? So again, it's sort of my version of what Andy Grove says throughout this book. Don't fall in love.

(16:54):
Don't get your identity wrapped up in something temporary. Marry the mission, date the model. And I'm an example of somebody who loves our model because I created our model and it's been so effective and it's what we're known for, bits and pieces of it through the years, however, we've had to discard because I am so committed to this, but I have to remind myself and it is emotional. But when I get a little bit wobbly and when I get a little bit confused or even kind of frustrated with changes other people want to make and I say, okay, okay, okay. But Andy, if the elders kicked you out and brought in a new team, not just a new leader, but a new team, what would the new team do? It's like, okay, clarity.

Holly Goddard (17:40):
It's easy to see that for some reason.

Andy Stanley (17:42):
So easy because there's no emotional, they wouldn't have any emotional association with many of the things that I love, but I want to be the kind of leader that's able to lead beyond that. And that's why this little conversation sits in my desk, printed out, framed as a reminder.

Holly Goddard (17:58):
Gosh, I love that because it's a discipline that you have to keep practicing.

Andy Stanley (18:01):
It is a discipline. Yeah.

Holly Goddard (18:03):
Okay. So our first question, it challenges what's possible. That last one right there, it tells us objectively what needs to change. But this third question, this is where we turn the mirror back on ourselves a little bit and it's essentially the book's title, What Would a Great Leader Do? So how is that different from what would the next leader do? And why do you consider that one the most important question?

Andy Stanley (18:26):
Yeah. What would a great leader do? So this is what I say. Great is as great does. Great leaders aren't great because of what they think or what they imagine or even what they say. It's really what they do. And that's why I titled the book what I title is because doing is what makes the difference. Doing is what makes the difference. So this question goes back to self-leadership. This question encompasses fear, addresses fear. In fact, in the book I say it accomplishes four things. I'll just list these real quick. When we have the courage, and it takes courage to ask this because before we even finish asking the question, we know basically what the answer is. We look at the options in front of us and we think about what everybody else would do, what everybody else normally does under these circumstances, what people expect us to do, what's in it for me, all that swirling around.

(19:19):
And then we pull back and ask, okay, okay, okay. But if I was a great leader, if I was a selfless others first, the company first, me second, if I was that kind of leader, if I was the kind of leader that books are written about and movies are made, if I was that kind of leader, what would that kind of leader with these options do? And again, it's like that second question. It brings extraordinary clarity. It does four things. This question raises the standard of our leadership above the circumstances of our leadership because in leadership we tend to make decisions based on the circumstances right in front of us. But when you ask, what would a great leader do, you push back from the immediate and you consider the ultimate and suddenly options that weren't options become options, decisions that were seemingly difficult to make down here and the details become clear.

(20:14):
The second thing this does, it unveils motives. I mean, let's be honest.

Holly Goddard (20:18):
I mean, that's such a big deal because that gets in our way and we don't even know it.

Andy Stanley (20:23):
Right. Again, a bad motive is difficult to see in the mirror. Selfishness is difficult to see in the mirror. Greed and jealousy, difficult to see in the mirror. But when you ask the question, okay, but what would a great leader do? And suddenly you're looking above that, you're looking beyond that. So it unveils motives. I wrote, it creates embarrassing clarity. And again, this goes back to self-leadership. It forces us to face the real reason that we're doing what we're doing or the real reason we're considering what we're considering because a great leader would be better than that. A great leader wouldn't be as selfish as that. A great leader wouldn't be as much, what's in it for me is that. So it unveils motives, it reveals weakness. For the conflict avoider, it's like, okay, great leaders don't avoid conflict for the person that powers up and just goes in.

(21:18):
Okay, great leaders don't do that either. So it reveals weakness. And the last thing, this question will inspire you to reach beyond the limits of personality and style. And here's what I mean by that. All of us have said either out loud or to ourselves, well, that's just not who I am. That's just not who I am.

Holly Goddard (21:36):
They kind of let you off the hook.

Andy Stanley (21:37):
Yeah. That's just not the kind of person I am. But great leaders -

Holly Goddard (21:41):
They don't do that.

Andy Stanley (21:42):
That's right. They're like, "You know what? That's not what I would normally do. That's not how I'm wired. But in this situation, in these circumstances, it calls for something more than that." So the challenge is to pause long enough to say, "Okay, I'm not committing to this, but if I were a great leader, what would a great leader do?"

Holly Goddard (22:02):
You know what I've learned about this question? Well, this is the one we have painted all over our wall, so you can't really escape it. And you should model it if you work here asking it. And sometimes if I get stuck in a meeting and I'm genuinely in a one-on-one stuck about what to do with the problem they're bringing me, I'll start saying, "Hold on, I got to think for a second. What would a great leader do?" And I'll just give myself permission and then they'll start riffing a little bit about what they think a great leader will do, which -

Andy Stanley (22:26):
Oh, you ask it out loud.

Holly Goddard (22:27):
Yeah. I'm just like, "Hold on. I'm thinking. Pause. Pause with this situation. I have to think."

Andy Stanley (22:32):
You lift everybody up above the circumstances.

Holly Goddard (22:35):
Yes.

Andy Stanley (22:35):
Yeah.

Holly Goddard (22:36):
And it's so fascinating to hear what they're saying because they'll be reflecting things to me and it helps me to zoom out. And it's such a way that we talk and think that we're expected to act like that in the moment. So it's really such a good culture creator, and sometimes you need people to help you get to that place. In fact, there's a story that you tell in the book that I love about your mentor, Charlie. Yeah. And I would not know that you were naturally conflict averse.That's just not how I experienced you. Good. So he helped you get there though. Will you tell that story?

Andy Stanley (23:10):
Yeah, I'll tell it real quick. So I was working with high school students in a church and there was a guy named Charlie Renfro, still around. He's in his 80s now. I love Charlie. I've told so many Charlie stories. Sometimes I feel like I should change his name because people are going to think, do you only know one guy, one smart guy? Anyway, so his students, his kids were in our student ministry, and so he wanted to get to know the person, the guy who was influencing his kids, which was me at the time. So I'm 30, 31, 32 years old. So we would meet for breakfast at a pancake place at 6:30 on Tuesday mornings. And Charlie owned a big outdoor business, billboards. He had a record storage business, which was kind of new back then. Instead of paying high dollars to store records, his vans were all over the city of Atlanta picking up records, storing records, then digitizing them.

(23:56):
He was one of the first to do that. So he was a big deal, doing big things. I'm doing little bitty small things. So Charlie would walk into the restaurant, he'd be all dressed up, cuff links. I mean, his initials, he's that guy, big personality, walk in, just greet people in this little restaurant, whether he knew him or not, just sort of the mayor kind of thing. And I'm sitting there. Then he would sit down. He had a University of Alabama big gold ring and he would slap his ring on the table and he would start every breakfast. He'd slap it down and he'd say, "Andy, what you working on big? What you working on big?" I'm thinking, "Compared to you, nothing. I'm not working on anything. I mean, you're larger than life." And we would have these breakfast conversations and I learned so much from Charlie.

(24:41):
But anyway, to the point of this story, and I would bring situations to him. And so there was situation at work where I had a boss that I just disagreed with on some things and I was avoiding him. And so I would just gripe and complain to Charlie. Two weeks later, we'd get together. I'm griping and complaining about the same thing. And I'm not bringing it to my boss. I'm just avoiding, avoiding, avoiding. And so he got tired of listening to me talk about the same thing over and over. So he slaps the ring down and says, "Andy, let me tell you a story." Because that's what he would do. I would bring a situation, he would tell me these epic stories that are so directive. So this was the story. Told a story about getting in trouble with these bankers in New York. He got upside down financially because owed too much money, wasn't working.

(25:26):
And so he said, "The turned me over to the black hats." And that was his way describing. Yeah. They put you in a different department. He said, "This is the group that thinks they know how to run my business better than I do." I'm like, "Oh." He said, "So they let me know they're going to be coming to Atlanta because they got to make sure they're getting their money." Anyway, big business deal. I called him. I said, "You don't need to do that. I'm going to be there Monday morning, meet you at your office." He said, "So I flew up there, walked in. He said, I'm going to be up here every..." I can't remember if it was every week or probably every other week. "You're not going to have to come looking for me. I'm going to be here every Monday morning with what you need from me and you're not going to have to come to Atlanta."

(26:05):
He said eventually they said, after a few rounds of this, they said, "Mr. Renfro, you don't need to come back up here." Because again, their concern was, "Oh, you're going to hide, you're going to hide things." He's like, "No, no, I'm not." And then he looked at me and he said, "Andy, sometimes you need to walk up to the cage and open the door and invite the big gorilla into the room with you." And I just looked at him, he said, "So," I knew what was coming next. He said, "When we finish our pancakes, I want you to get in your car. I want you to drive down through the office. I want you to walk in his office and I want you to introduce the conversation." I'm like, "Yes, sir."

Holly Goddard (26:41):
Yes, sir. Yeah.

Andy Stanley (26:42):
You got to invite the -

Holly Goddard (26:43):
You got to hit it head on.

Andy Stanley (26:44):
That he said. He said, "You got to invite the 500 pound gorilla into the room. Don't avoid the gorilla." And so here I am to this day telling that story and so many times, Holly, when I just want to... I'll just email. I hope they don't answer. I'll just leave a voicemail. It's like, "Andy, come on. That's not what great leaders do. You need to open up the cage, invite the issue into the room. Don't hide and don't run." And that really was kind of a defining moment because it's not, believe it or not, it's not my personality. So anyway, that's the story.

Holly Goddard (27:20):
Well, I love that.

Andy Stanley (27:21):
But that's what great leaders do, right?

Holly Goddard (27:22):
That is what great leaders do. And what I love is a great leader took some time to sit with a potential great leader and pass these things on because that's what great leaders do.

Andy Stanley (27:33):
I'm grateful forever, forever for Charlie Renfro. So many stories. Anyway.

Holly Goddard (27:38):
Well, as we wrap up, I would love for you to do that for our audience today because we got a lot of great leaders. So this is ultimately a legacy question because eventually all this leadership stuff, it's just a story we're going to tell about our lives, just like the story you're telling about Charlie. So let's leave everybody with something practical today. To our leaders listening, what's one thing you want them to do with this week?

Andy Stanley (28:00):
Yeah, that's a good question. So my suggestion is that you write this question, what would a great leader do? Write the question down somewhere where you can't help but see it every day for the next few days or the next few weeks, or you can do what we did and just paint it on the walls in your offices. What would a great leader do? Then stop and ask yourself the question. Stop and ask it before a challenging one-on-one. Stop and ask it before you react to baseless criticism or a ridiculous suggestion. Ask it when an appetite threatens a value, what would a great leader in my circumstances faced with my options do? And here's the secret. If you do what a great leader would do, you become a great leader because great is as great does. So ask it and then act on it because that is what great leaders do.

Holly Goddard (28:58):
Hey, thank you so much for giving us that question to wrestle with. And thank you so much for joining us. Before you go, take a minute to subscribe wherever you access this content. By subscribing, you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep bringing you great content to help you go further faster. And be sure to visit andystanley.com where you can download the leadership podcast application guide. That's going to include a summary of this episode plus questions for reflection or group discussion. And we will see you next time right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.