By Allen Haynes • September 8, 2025 Listen to the podcast. Suzy Gray (00:02): Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb, A conversation designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging deeper into this month’s podcast episode. I’m your host, Suzy Gray. Last week, Dr. Tim Elmore joined Andy on the podcast to talk about generation Z in the workplace, and it sparked so many thoughts, especially as someone with Gen Z kids of my own who are navigating work life right now. We covered a lot with Tim last week, but there were two strategies from his book. The Future Begins with Z we didn’t get to. So today we’re diving deeper into what actually motivates Gen Z and why soft skills and leadership modeling matter more than ever. So Andy, let’s start with motivation. One of Tim’s strategies is called Awakening Ambition, and he points out that Gen Z isn’t motivated by status or salary in the same way that previous generations were. Instead, they’re drawn to autonomy, mastery, and purpose. Tim opens the chapter with this story about Josiah, a Gen Z, who basically built a creative career without a degree by just taking initiative, freelancing and finding a sense of ownership. And the line that’s struck me was he works hard because he owns the work. Andy, how do we lead when the old incentives don’t work anymore? Andy Stanley (01:21): Well, as I read that story, and of course as I listened to Tim, I kept thinking, and I didn’t want to keep interrupting Tim. He was our guest, and everything he said struck me as true. I’m just not convinced, and I think he would agree that none of this is completely new, right? Suzy Gray (01:37): Yeah. Andy Stanley (01:38): I mean, these are new expressions of things that probably all of us felt. And part of it is I am constantly telling myself, because I feel like I live my life twice. I’m a preacher’s kid now. I’m the preacher. So, so much of what I experience, it’s easier I think, in my case, to remember what it was like being the new person, the young guy that thought he had all the answers, so many ideas, and I didn’t have all the answers, but I had some really good ideas and I was pushed down and pushed down because of budget. And we don’t do that on and on and on. So I find myself identifying pretty easily with this group, not that I think like Current Gen Zers do. So going back to the statement, he works hard because he owns the work. That’s not necessarily a new idea. It’s just that this generation has an opportunity to create and own work earlier and independent of existing systems. Suzy Gray (02:29): That’s right. Andy Stanley (02:30): It’s not that they work against the systems. They don’t need those systems to work, Suzy Gray (02:35): Right? Andy Stanley (02:35): Once upon a time, you had to get a job to have a job or to create income. And the options are, there’s so many options now. And not to mention this is a little off topic because of social media, they are aware of how well a person can potentially do outside of a current system Suzy Gray (02:54): Of a structure, Andy Stanley (02:55): Right? They don’t have to see a documentary about it. They don’t have to read about, they don’t have to hear about it every time they open up Instagram or TikTok. They’re seeing example after example after of somebody their age or younger who’s figured this out. So consequently, there are more opportunities. There are endless opportunities for them to do work that they own. They own the work. So the challenge then, and as I listened to Tim, I was taking mental notes in addition to what I took in the book, we have to figure out or let me personalize it. I have to figure out as an employer how to create an environment where they don’t just feel like they own the work, that they actually own the work. (03:35): Which means more parameters as he talked about listening more. Again, we have to get some things done as an organization, but if there is a way to create a context where they feel personal ownership and the freedom to attempt things, try things, but at the same time get things done, we need for them to get done, then they’re going to stay. And as he pointed out last time too, I thought this was so interesting. They want to stay, but they’re going to stay where they belong, not simply where they have an opportunity. That’s part of the new challenge. The other thing Tim talked about that I think answers this question and this tension that this illustration brings us to, is that what they’re looking for, what they need is coaching, not bossing. And even the word boss, nobody wants a boss or nobody wants somebody who’s bossy. And I think everybody listening to this podcast gets that. That’s not new information, but the whole idea of playing the role of a coach as the boss or as the manager, that’s different. And again, the acronym he gave us for listening and asking questions was so helpful in that regard as well. And then the last thing before we move on, this is the generation for whom the question why is as important or more important than the question. What? (04:51): Don’t just tell me what to do, but I want to know why. Because again, they have so many options to do things that matter or feel like they matter to them and things that matter. That’s a why issue, not just a what issue. So I don’t think this calls for wholesale change in terms of leadership, but it certainly calls for a different kind of sensitivity and not to make the mistake. And I love the fact that in the book he talks about some of the myths as it relates to Gen Z. It’s not a matter of them being lazy or them not wanting to work or be a part of something bigger than themselves. It really has to do with how we approach those things and harness that great energy that’s going to go somewhere. Right? Exactly. We want to keep it in our organization. Suzy Gray (05:30): And understanding the why allows them to own it. If they understand the why and they connect with why, it allows them to move into it as an owner. Andy Stanley (05:38): And because I said so isn’t a why. Suzy Gray (05:40): Never. Andy Stanley (05:41): And Suzy, as we’ve talked about before on the podcast and why really are the fuel for high performance teams. And we’re really good at what, but keeping the why out front, casting the vision for why we do what we do and what we do in some way impacts or changes the world or makes the world a better place. And every organization can find their why if they spend the time thinking about it. That is so important. It’s more important than ever maybe for Gen Z, and that’s not a bad thing. Suzy Gray (06:08): And then like you said, keeping it out front, it’s the why before the what. Andy Stanley (06:10): Yes, Suzy Gray (06:11): Absolutely. Andy Stanley (06:11): And when we get too busy, the first thing that goes away is why. Suzy Gray (06:14): It’s why Andy Stanley (06:15): Because it’s what? Suzy Gray (06:15): Yeah, just do this thing. Andy Stanley (06:17): Yeah, there’s a deadline and what needs to get done in order to meet the deadline. So it’s easy for that to just drop out of sight, Suzy Gray (06:25): But more important now than ever. Andy Stanley (06:27): Yeah. Suzy Gray (06:28): Well actually, Tim introduces this idea that I actually found helpful as a parent of Gen Zers. He talks about the idea that Gen Z often sees work more like a hobby. He says a good hobby. Their job can be a source of satisfaction and fulfillment, something challenging yet worthwhile as they develop their gifts, it’s an extension of themselves and a good hobby. People engage for different reasons. So they’re not just looking for work. They’re not just looking to pay their bills, they’re looking for work that fits them and something that’s fun and that they enjoy. I thought that was really interesting. Andy Stanley (07:03): It’s very interesting. And here’s part of the challenge. There are jobs that are absolutely essential to our society that do not fit that bill necessarily. I’m thinking right now of a good friend who, it’s a friend of my kids, graduated from college with a degree, always wanted to be a teacher. She got a great teaching job right out of college, and in the spring finished her second year. And she doesn’t hate it, but she almost hates it. And do you know what she hates about it? It’s not teaching. It’s the lack of flexibility. Suzy Gray (07:40): Oh, interesting. Andy Stanley (07:40): Well, if you’re a teacher, Suzy Gray (07:42): You have no flexibility. Andy Stanley (07:43): There’s no flexibility. You get there early and you feel the weight of responsibility the entire day. And then you go home and grade papers. Suzy Gray (07:55): And then get up and do it again. Andy Stanley (07:55): And get up and do it again. And here’s someone who has benefited from a generation who made that commitment. That’s why she got through elementary school and high school and college and got a great degree. And that was inspiring to her. But when she drops into that context, I think she’s probably going to quit. Suzy Gray (08:16): Wow. Andy Stanley (08:17): Again, and teaching is just one example. This is the tension. On one hand, we need more nurses. I mean, nurses, 12 hour shifts, you’re on. So that’s part of the challenge, both in terms of what’s happening in our society, but at the same time, for those of us who are trying to lead this generation to keep that why out front and say, Hey, are you willing to give up some of that flexibility that you see exaggerated on Instagram and exaggerated on TikTok in order to do something great for society? And again, that calls for a different kind of motivation. How would you respond to that? Suzy Gray (08:53): I think that it’s also finding out are there ways that there may be some things you can’t bend or change, but are there other things that they value? For example, I have four Gen Z kids. One of them just graduated colleges and an office manager here in Atlanta. And there are two, this is going to sound like odd, but there are two office cats. She loves animals. And Andy Stanley (09:16): Wait, there are cats in the office. Suzy Gray (09:17): There’s cats in the office, Andy Stanley (09:18): Another whole, We could do a whole podcast on animals in the office. Suzy Gray (09:21): Well, this is a pet walking service for the city of Atlanta, so it makes a lot of sense. Andy Stanley (09:27): But cats, Suzy Gray (09:28): Cats, she loves cats. And she’s very motivated by the fact that there’s a cat that sits in her lap almost all day while she works. And she does have set hours, but the fact that she has a little flexibility in the front and back of the day and that she has office cats is a huge win. So you may not be able to change the structure of the day, but for people that want to work at an organization like that, having pets in the office is a huge plus. Andy Stanley (09:54): And my generation’s like, no, Suzy Gray (09:56): No. Alright. But the question is, is there a way that maybe you can’t fix this, but what else motivates? Good point. I think Tim mentioned that a little but. Andy Stanley (10:05): Yeah to compensate. And for our podcast listeners who missed last week, the acronym he gave us in terms of giving feedback relates to this, the whole idea of asking and listening before coaching or before instructing or guiding. Again, maybe there’s some things to your point that we can do differently that are small tweaks that would never cross my mind. In fact, they wouldn’t just not cross my mind. They would feel like wrong. Can you even do that in a corporate environment? And I walk through our offices and I sometimes just go, but you know what? They’re getting the work done and they’re great and they’re having fun and okay. Suzy Gray (10:44): Yeah, that’s right. So I mean, I think there’s just different ways to, and just figuring out what motivates them. One of the things Tim says is a leader should profile a job like a hobby. Andy Stanley (10:55): Yeah. This is in the book. This was very interesting. Suzy Gray (10:58): I thought so too. Andy Stanley (10:59): And bothered me. Go ahead. Suzy Gray (11:01): I mean…He talks about helping Gen Z . Andy Stanley (11:03): Profile a job, like a hobby, Suzy Gray (11:06): Like a hobby, like help Gen Z see how their inputs connect to the mission and then just get out of their way to do it. And I thought that was an interesting way to think about instead of the formal job description, what is the profile of this job and how does it connect to this bigger mission? Andy Stanley (11:24): And it’s what we all want. We all want to love our job. As much as we love a hobby, Suzy Gray (11:30): Yes. Andy Stanley (11:30): We want to love going home, and we want to love coming back to work, Suzy Gray (11:34): That’s right. Andy Stanley (11:34): So as much as I didn’t like the word when I read it in the book, I thought, okay, there’s some truth to that. And again, it is a win for me as an employer. If I can create an atmosphere or a context in which it feels that way to the people who are in our organization, they’re going to feel like they belong. They’re going to feel we listened. They’re going to stay longer and we’re going to get the best out of them. And that illustration that he shared about nasa, Suzy Gray (11:59): Oh my goodness, Andy Stanley (12:00): Was mind boggling. Suzy Gray (12:01): It was brilliant. And I don’t know that I realized that Andy Stanley (12:05): I didn’t just about the Suzy Gray (12:05): 23-year-old, that was the go no-go guy. Andy Stanley (12:06): Yes. I don’t think, well, on television, the television or the movie depictions of those, they’re older. They’re look like a bunch of nerdy, older, middle-aged thirties, forties, yeah, guys maybe because nobody would believe that if they saw it. But the point is to have that kind of brain power in our organization that’s committed to what we’re trying to accomplish and to create context for them to thrive, that’s a win almost regardless of what we have to do. But for me and for our generation, it’s a bit of a twist in terms of how we think, Suzy Gray (12:37): How we think, and how we position the opportunity we’re inviting people into. For sure. Andy Stanley (12:41): And one more thing as it relates to this approaching work, like a hobby, he says that Gen Z is motivated by three things, and two of these for sure align with the whole hobby mentality. First of all, it’s autonomy, which is can I do it without micromanagement? Can I do this without somebody looking over, standing over my shoulder? Standing over my shoulder? Which is a hobby. That’s a hobby, right? Secondly is mastery, which is am I actually getting better at this? And that’s a hobby mindset. I’m going to keep doing this because I enjoy it and I want to get better at this. I don’t have to be the best in the world, but I’m getting better. So autonomy, mastery. And then the third one is purpose. And that is does it matter beyond me? Which isn’t necessarily related to hobby, but there’s some intrinsic motivation around purpose. So autonomy, can I do this without somebody watching me all the time? Mastery is just something I can get better at and purpose does this matter beyond me. I do think finding those three leverage points creates enough of a sense of hobby that a job is something that we look forward to, is enjoyable when I turn it around and think about what I do. Absolutely. I want autonomy. I want to feel like I’m getting better at it and definitely want to feel like there’s a sense of purpose. Suzy Gray (13:52): It’s so true. Andy Stanley (13:53): So let me ask you, Suzy, in your current job, do you feel like let’s just have a little one-on-one in front of our podcast audience, Suzy Gray (14:02): What better place? Andy Stanley (14:03): Yeah. Do you feel like you have enough autonomy? And I can tell you, you definitely have mastered what you do, and then a sense of purpose, and I think you would say, yeah, sitting here with me, absolutely. No, the point is that’s important to all of us. Suzy Gray (14:19): Those are important things to all of us for sure. Andy Stanley (14:20): We may never think about trying to hobby eyes gamify, hobby fi a job. But yeah, if there’s two out of those three you enjoy coming to work, Suzy Gray (14:29): You enjoy coming to work and look forward to it. And I do. I think your point earlier of it may not be unique to this generation, but we may need to think about how do we position it differently that addresses it directly. Andy Stanley (14:39): How we present that rather than, here’s what we need you to do, Suzy Gray (14:42): Here’s your task list. Andy Stanley (14:42): Here’s why this is important to the organization and making the world a better place. Suzy Gray (14:48): Absolutely. Yeah. That’s so great. Well, I wanted to dig deeper on one other thought that was in the book that we didn’t talk about last week. Tim points out how Gen Z often comes across as confident and even cocky, but underneath that they’re fragile. They’ve been told they’re amazing, but they haven’t always had a chance to earn their confidence through failure and recovery. And there’s a lot of reasons for that. I mean, it could be like Andy Stanley (15:13): Can I interrupt and say one thing about that? Because this is so important. Don’t lose your train of thought. The failure and recovery muscle, that’s huge. You and I have been in enough jobs and careers, failure and recovery. If you’ve never experienced that, the feelings and emotions associated with failure can be so overwhelming, especially early on. What do you do? You just quit. I don’t feel like I’m getting better at this. I don’t feel like I can succeed at this. So I’m out. Once upon a time out wasn’t as much of an option. And now it’s Suzy Gray (15:48): It’s definitely an option. Andy Stanley (15:49): It’s an option. In fact, you just shared a few minutes ago before we started recording someone who is Gen Z, who what we would call an average day at work, and this person’s like, I want to be out. I’m going to quit. And you just kind of looked at ’em like, what? That’s not a problem. That’s Tuesday, right? Suzy Gray (16:07): Yes. And you’re going to be fine. Andy Stanley (16:08): So the reason I’m making a big deal out of it, I need to remind myself to be sensitive to the fact that the failure recovery experience is brand new to some of the people that I work with and am coaching. Because I just assume it’s like, yeah, so what? You failed. So what? It didn’t work out. But again, it’s a muscle. It’s something that has to be exercised. So anyway, I interrupted you, but I thought that was important. Suzy Gray (16:31): I actually think that is a super big part of the dynamic that they’re facing because Andy Stanley (16:38): It’s where they need coaching. Suzy Gray (16:39): Exactly. And I think that because realizing it isn’t the end of the world, failure does not mean finality. It doesn’t mean, well, I just have to jettison. Andy Stanley (16:49): It just feels bad. Suzy Gray (16:50): And it feels really bad, especially when you are feeling it for the first time and you’re like, well, I can’t go back. I just got to quit. Andy Stanley (16:57): And especially to the point I interrupted, where they’ve been told their whole life, you’re amazing. You can do anything. Everybody gets a trophy. Suzy Gray (17:03): Right? But then you didn’t. Andy Stanley (17:04): Yeah, yeah. So Suzy, you actually had a failure in recovery or a failure I guess, and then were forced to figure out how to recover early in your career when that muscle had not been exercised. And you’ve shared that with your team. And so I don’t know, can you talk about that Suzy Gray (17:22): Yes. Andy Stanley (17:23): I think you posted about it on LinkedIn at some point. Suzy Gray (17:24): I did. It was therapeutic or something. I don’t know. Andy Stanley (17:28): Well do some more therapy Suzy Gray (17:30): Right here on the podcast. Yeah, right here again, right here on the podcast. Yeah. Early in my career, I was in telecommunications. I had just been promoted to a manager role. And the first week I was on the job, I was in product development Andy Stanley (17:42): First week, Suzy Gray (17:43): First week I was in product development, and a salesperson was like, Hey, I have a client in the office today. We want to talk about the product. You need to come in and talk to the customer. And I had never done a presentation on the product development product I was a part of. I had never had a very formal lots of engineers in the room (18:03): Presentation, but I didn’t know at the time. I was like 23, 24. I didn’t know that. I could say, Hey, I may not be the best person today for this, but let’s schedule a time to do that. Or I just thought, well, it’s my job. I better go in and do it. And I crashed and burned so terribly the time we go, that’s a great question. Lemme get back to you on that. I felt like that was the entire presentation. It was very, very, very detailed. It was in the architecture details of the product that I was working on, and it was more a computer science question almost than an engineering question. And I completely failed the presentation. And I remember leaving that day thinking, no sales team is ever going to want me in a presentation again. I don’t even think I can show up at work tomorrow. It was horrific. And I remember going home just being like, what do I do? And I just remember, I will never, ever let that happen again. I will never let that happen. And so it was like, I am going to say no if I’m not confident, and I’m going to be sure that I’m ready when I’m asked. And that Andy Stanley (19:17): Now, did anybody follow up with you to coach you? Or is it like, just don’t make eye contact in the hall? Suzy Gray (19:23): I mean, my boss wasn’t in the room. I don’t even know if the salesperson said anything. And I ended up working with those salespeople a lot. So it ended up being fine, but at the moment, I had no recovery mechanism. I had nothing to figure out. How do I show my face at the office tomorrow? And I really thought my career is over. I just made manager and I’m done my Andy Stanley (19:46): One day, my one day as manager. Suzy Gray (19:49): It was hard. Andy Stanley (19:50): But you have the internal maturity or because of previous life experiences, you made a decision that will never ever happen again. That’s different than I will never go back to that job again. Suzy Gray (20:05): Yes, Andy Stanley (20:05): Okay. Suzy Gray (20:06): Yeah. Andy Stanley (20:06): So fortunately for you, you had enough wherewithal to decide, okay, I’m not going to quit. I’m just never going to be unprepared again. So Suzy Gray (20:14): Didn’t really want to go to the office the next day, but it did recover and that was a successful part. Andy Stanley (20:18): And I think that has given you empathy with younger staff members because you never forget that feeling. You can almost feel it again if you sit in the story line. Suzy Gray (20:29): A hundred percent. Andy Stanley (20:30): Yeah. And you don’t want anyone to ever feel that who works or reports to you. And these are some of the things that I think we should bring forward as leaders too, that maybe, as Tim talked about, you have to connect before you, correct. You connect before you. Correct. And so that’s a story that you could a Gen Z employee before you correct them, say, lemme tell you a story that happened to me. I know what you’re about to feel feels because there’s connection and correction and everybody listening to the podcast has a story or two like that. So those are good connecting points. Before we do correcting points, Suzy Gray (21:06): It’s painful, but it does get that muscle memory that you were talking about of I can recover, I can chill my face, I can go on and I can get better. Andy Stanley (21:16): And the reason I’m belaboring this point is as Tim talked about in the podcast and in his book, the perception is sometimes that Gen Z is fragile. (21:26): Well, we are fragile in the areas where we have no muscle memory or we’ve never developed a muscle. So there is some fragility that just comes with being young and having a lack of experience. And so we can’t judge Gen Z for that. And the other side of this that we didn’t talk about last time, there are a lot of Gen Zers who have not been celebrated, who have not been told that you can do anything, who didn’t get trophies every single time. That’s right. So they come in with the immaturity of Gen Z, but with a different growing up experience. And then you try to merge those two together. And it’s challenging, but that’s why we’re talking about it. Suzy Gray (22:03): That’s right. It’s challenging. But to your point, it’s the relationship building. It’s that relationship that allows you to have those conversations and understand, oh, I know more about your context, so I know what I’m walking into when I had that discussion. So important. So Andy, as we wrap up, for the leader that’s listening right now who’s frustrated, who’s tried the same tactics, the work with previous generations, but they’re just not working with Gen Z, based on your conversation with Tim and your engagement with this work, where would you suggest they get started? Where do they start? Andy Stanley (22:36): Well, I know this sounds like a pitch, but I really do think this is a great book. Suzy Gray (22:40): Yeah, it’s true. Andy Stanley (22:41): I mean, the contrast that he gave us at the end, the list in the book, some of the acronyms are so memorable and helpful because again, as I said at the beginning of this conversation, I don’t think any of this is brand new, but we forget where we were when we started our careers. We forget that we all felt like we had all the answers. We didn’t have the recovery muscle. So none of this is necessarily new, but having some handles and some things that we keep in front of us, and this is why the book is so extremely valuable. So I think even one or two of these things that we kept in front of us when we have these conversations or as we begin these conversations, especially what he talks about as it relates to feedback, because feedback is worthless if the person doesn’t walk out of the room and number one, know what to do. And number two, feel like they can do it. Suzy Gray (23:31): Do it. Yeah. Andy Stanley (23:31): And based on temperament their back, there are so many intangibles when it comes to giving feedback that makes a person better. And I just think his insights as it relates to the nature of Gen Z helps set us up to do a better job coaching, which is what they’re asking for. And the whole idea of connect before you, correct. I mean, that’s just good for anybody, but it is especially important for this generation because our organizations will be better if we can tap into this generation. I mean, absolutely. In fact, we have to. And I think our experience here is we want to, they make us better. So I think this is super important. And I think Tim’s insights again, and for those of you who don’t know much about Tim, other than these two podcasts, these are research-based insights. This isn’t somebody who’s just smart and has some ideas. He has spent hours and hours and hours with focus groups. So this is the real deal, and there’s so much to take away from. Suzy Gray (24:30): Yeah. So helpful. Well, Andy, thank you so much for your time today and for digging deeper into this topic. And thanks to all of you for listening to this episode of Reverb. If you found it helpful, be sure to leave a review or pass it along to another leader. And as always, subscribe wherever you listen. And check out Andy stanley.com/podcast for more resources to help you go even further faster. Comments are closed.