By Allen Haynes • September 1, 2025 Listen to the podcast. Andy Stanley (00:02): Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further, faster. And before we get into today’s fantastic content, I must say, I want to tell you about a special offer from our friends at belay with countless responsibilities pulling out your time and attention. It is more important than ever to learn how to delegate well, so you can lead with focus. This is something we all struggle with, right? So if you’re feeling that pool belay can help for over a decade, BELAY has matched busy leaders with the remote staffing support. They need to delegate with confidence. And that’s the key, isn’t it? To know that once we delegate something, it’s going to get done and it’s going to get done the way that we want it to get done. They do this from administrative and marketing to bookkeeping to high level financial support. (00:50): BELAY has the nation’s largest pool of exceptional pre-vetted executive assistance, and even financial experts. To help you get started on your delegation journey, BELAY is offering a free download of their delegation worksheet and guide. This resource is packed with practical tools and tips to help you identify what to delegate and how to delegate well, and how you can free yourself up to focus on what matters most. To claim this offer. Text the word Andy to 5 5 1 2 3. That’s a NDY to 5 5 1 2 3 to start delegating and free up your leadership with belay. And now let’s jump into today’s podcast episode. (01:33): Today, my good friend, Dr. Tim Elmore, is back in the studio to talk about hiring and inspiring Gen Z. So whether or not you have attempted to hire and inspire Gen Z, even if you have kids in that age group, this is going to be an extraordinarily helpful conversation. We’re going to talk about motivation among other things. Tim is a world renowned, and I’m not just saying that because he’s sitting here. He’s literally a world renowned expert on multi-generational diversity in the workforce. He’s the president and founder of Growing Leaders International and Atlanta based nonprofit organization created to develop emerging leaders. Now, Tim’s work grew out of 20 years of working alongside John Maxwell. Elmore has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, USA Today. Psychology Today has been featured on CNN’s headline news, Fox Business News. He has written over 35 books, including habitudes. (02:26): These are images that form leadership habits and attitudes. And I always say this when I talk about this, Tim. Those are the most transferable principles, the most transferable leadership principles that exist today. If you are not familiar with habitudes, you need to Google it immediately. In fact, if this conversation gets a little slow, you can just Google Habitudes. In addition to Habitudes, he’s written eight paradoxes of great leadership. I had Tim come in and talk to our entire staff about that one. Also, a new kind of diversity making the different generations on your team, a competitive advantage. And his latest book that we’re going to talk about today, the future begins with Z nine strategies to lead Generation Z as they upset the workplace and home, right, Tim? Tim Elmore (03:12): Yes. Yes. They disrupt home. That’s true. That’s true. Andy Stanley (03:14): All right, so welcome back. So we’re just going to dive right in. Early on in the book, you make a statement that I think is a great place to launch our conversation. You say Generation Z has entered the workforce and are challenging leaders in ways they have never experienced before. And that’s absolutely true. And then you write, they often bring little work experience following college graduation, and I would say virtually no work experience, but those are my words, not yours, with parents encouraging them to focus on academics because that’s what we all did, right? Plus you write, plus having grown up on screens, they frequently bring lower levels of emotional intelligence than previous generations. Then later, you write today four and five, hiring managers say Generation Z is the most difficult population to manage almost one in three. Avoid hiring them altogether. And one of the reasons I’m so excited about this conversation, even though I have the book, is our organization is full of Gen Z, and everything you said so far is absolutely the case and has been our experience. And yet at the same time, they really do make our organization better. So let’s start by defining what is Gen Z? Tim Elmore (04:26): Okay, well, thank you for that introduction. Andy, generation Z represents the newest professionals joining our teams, but they also are college students, high school students, and even the youngest would be middle school. So they’re young adults. They’re the next population of employees we’re going to see for the next five to 10 years, followed by the alpha generation, which are younger children, which your next book. Yeah, probably so. Yeah. But I should tell you my hope and my energy for Gen Z Rose as I did this research, really, I held loads and loads of focus groups, and I win as an older guy. I’m on the back half of my career for sure. But I just began to see that context explained conduct. We see, oh, there’s a reason for that, why you think that way, why you said that thing. And they were all very respectful in the focus group, Sandy. But here’s the conclusion. I drew Renee Walters, my friend said this, and I think it’s perfect. Generation Z is the sandpaper on my leadership. I did not know I needed. Andy Stanley (05:29): Oh, wow. Tim Elmore (05:30): Isn’t that powerful? Andy Stanley (05:31): Yeah. Tim Elmore (05:31): So are they different? You bet they are. Are they going to make you better because they’re not going to put up with some of the BS that maybe we practiced for years and years and years? Andy Stanley (05:39): Wow. The sandpaper on my leadership that I didn’t know I needed. That’s incredible. So yesterday I was talking to a woman who reports to me. So I’m 67, she’s in her early forties, and we’re experiencing Gen Z the same way, even though there’s this diversity even in the way she and I see organizational life sometimes, but we’re both looking back at this group going, huh? What? Yeah. And she’s raising two currently in her home and then managing a half dozen on our staff and is excited as we are to have fresh leadership and young leadership in our organization. It’s a bit of a head scratch sometimes. Tim Elmore (06:20): It is. They’re going to come in, almost everyone will say this, who employs them demanding change. And when I say change, not just tweak it. If they say, I want to change this, we go, okay, we’ll tweak that department. No, no, no, no. I want an overhaul. Andy Stanley (06:33): Yeah, Tim Elmore (06:35): Think about the Black Lives Matter marches in 2020. Not all were Gen Z, but there were a lot of Gen Zs marching five years ago, and then millennials and so forth, but they were kind of asking, why didn’t you solve this problem already? And I would say, I don’t know. It’s been going on for decades now. So I tell a story early in the book that I think is a picture of what’s happening. I have known Colin Webb since he was in high school a number of years ago. He graduated just north of Atlanta from Gwinnett County School, and really good grades, in fact. So good that he went off to MIT for college. Andy Stanley (07:10): Yeah, that’s really good. Yeah. Tim Elmore (07:11): Yeah, it’s good. So he was on student government all four years. He’s just a leader. So when he graduated, MIT, you can imagine he had several job offers. He chose to go to one of the big three in Detroit, Michigan, general Motors. He was put in the smart car division at 22, 23 years old. Well, first few months in the smart car division at gm. He’s noticing that GM had some old school ways of doing things, some little traditional, Andy Stanley (07:38): Well, it is gm. Tim Elmore (07:39): Yeah, that’s right. Need we say more in all due respect, great car company. But he thought, oh my gosh, we could upgrade that. We could introduce professional development. There’s a novel thought we can introduce a new system here. So he took the ideas to his supervisor and his supervisor, basically, I’m sure in a civil way, but just shut him down. He said, you need to keep your nose to the grindstone, keep your head down. Just do your work. Yeah, we Andy Stanley (08:04): Didn’t hire you for your ideas. Tim Elmore (08:06): That’s right. Andy Stanley (08:07): Yeah. Tim Elmore (08:07): So Colin in a Gen Z type of manner said, okay, sir, went back to the grindstone, but thought I’m not done yet. So he emails the CEO of General Motors, Mary Barr, Andy Stanley (08:20): Of course he does, right. Tim Elmore (08:20): Right? And lists all these, there’s Andy Stanley (08:22): No org chart. There are just people, right? That’s exactly, that’s how they Tim Elmore (08:26): Think. Andy Stanley (08:27): It’s flat. Yeah, it’s flat. Tim Elmore (08:28): So Mary emails him back, she replies and says, these are really good ideas. Let me take them to the executive team. The executive team responds, these really are good ideas, but Andy, by the time it makes its way back down the org chart and gets down to the middle managers, it reaches an impasse. And he hears, this is what he hears. I told you, you need to just do your work. You need to be here eight years before you get to lead anything. So understandably, that might be their policy, but they didn’t keep him less than a year. He leaves. He started his own company. In fact, he started three companies between this conversation, then sold one. He’s doing quite well in his twenties. But I’m thinking maybe that’s an exaggerated picture, but it’s certainly picture. We’ll keep ’em a little bit if we don’t listen and let them have a voice, if we don’t consider there might be a better way than the way we’ve always done it and then let them lead. So is it messy? Of course it’s messy, but I think it’s a picture of what we’re going to see more and more from Gen Z Andy Stanley (09:32): And as critical as we might be of the person who responded to him that way. I know I have done the very same thing in my own way with my own words, with a smile on my face and in my mind, I’m going just wait and see. That’s right. Just young lady, young man. Just wait and see. And the last thing any of us want to do are run those kinds of people out of our organizations. And the point of this book, and the reason this is a helpful conversation, it’s not a matter of jetting our values or the way we run our organizations. It’s a matter of sensitivity to and listening and managing our responses. That’s what I’m learning. Tim Elmore (10:10): No doubt about it. Andy Stanley (10:11): And as much as I believe all this, I still catch myself. Me too. Going back to my dumb illustrations and my dumb word pictures. They make sense to me. So in the book, you introduced this idea of, you call it the Peter Pan paradox. Can you talk a little bit about that? I thought that framed this as well. Tim Elmore (10:29): Well, I think it does. I always try to offer metaphors and stories so people can wrap their arms around it. So when I did a book years ago called Generation, I talked about the Peter Pan syndrome, and of course that was about are they ever going to grow up? But the Peter Pan paradox is something even deeper. So think with me listeners, if you remember the story, Peter Pan, Disney made a movie about it. It’s a book. It’s a play. Here’s this character named Peter Pan who has these magical abilities. He flies into the room, nobody else is flying. He drops pixie dust on everything and magical things happen. But if you remember, the other truth about Peter Pan is he wanted to live in Neverland. He did not really want to grow up and become an adult. And in so many ways that describes what’s happening today, leaders check this out. The age of authority seems to be going down. The age of maturity seems to be going up. Andy Stanley (11:24): You need to say that again. That’s a big thought. Tim Elmore (11:28): The paradox Andy Stanley (11:29): Is it. It is. That is the para. So the Tim Elmore (11:29): Age of authority is going down. They’re coming in with visibility on the future. I don’t have with, they’re totally comfortable with AI and smart technology. Andy, did you know one out of eight Gen Zs has monetized social media on their phone. They’ve monetized one, make eight, one out of eight, and 20% of those who have monetized it, it’s a full-time job. They’re making six digits. This is not a lie. It’s in the book. So I’m going, oh my gosh. They sat in their living room on a couch eating Cheetos, and they’re making quite a bit of money. I don’t know how to do that. So age of authority is going down. They’re going to come in with insights we don’t have. And that might be okay, but when it’s coupled with, but I don’t know if socially and emotionally, they’re ready to look me in the eye and have a conversation. They might want to text me when they want to leave, or they may just ghost me when they want to leave. What’s very difficult. So here’s what I would say, listeners, if you’re trying to wrap your arms around this, we need to listen more than we used to listen to these young teammates, but we need to coach more than we used to coach. If we’re willing to do this, I think we have a chance of keeping them and leading them. Andy Stanley (12:36): And the traditional approach is, Hey, just this is a bit extreme. Keep your mouth shut and you’ll figure this out. If you hang around here long enough, you’ll catch on. And they hear us saying, no, I’m going to catch the disease that you have, and I don’t want that disease. Tim Elmore (12:52): I think you’re right. Andy Stanley (12:52): Yeah, they don’t want to, I don’t want the contagion, but it’s language. They do need time and organizational life. We’re better. They’re better. But if we don’t create a context for them, they’re gone. Tim Elmore (13:04): Andy, a good way to put what you’re saying, I think is this. I remember you and I started our careers decades ago. I remember I had to lean into the system, change, wear a tie, whatever you got to do. But I needed to change. I think we now need to meet in the middle because I think they’re going to introduce us to paths into the future, but they’re going to need to grow and learn to not wear gym shorts to work or whatever. Well, as I met with them and I’m in my sixties and they’re in their twenties, not only did I learn to lean in and learn to say, oh my gosh, I had no idea, but I realized I had bought into some myths. We have one bad experience with Austin who did something completely funky. And what are you doing, buddy? Get out of here. Andy Stanley (13:49): And let me guess. They’re lazy, they’re fragile. In fact, you talk about this in the book. You have a list of these myths. They’re fragile, they’re disloyal, Tim Elmore (13:59): Not really committed. Andy Stanley (14:00): They’re not committed, don’t Tim Elmore (14:01): Want to work hard. Andy Stanley (14:01): It’s a character issue. Tim Elmore (14:03): Yes, all of these. And it’s usually because now sometimes it’s data driven, but there were lazy slackers in my generation. Andy Stanley (14:12): And currently still are. Tim Elmore (14:13): That’s right. So every generation brings their good and bad. But let me give you some of those myths just to what the appetite of listeners. I remember a beating with a focus group that was in LA, and I remember meeting Natalie and I said, Natalie, one of the statements I hear from bosses is that you guys and Gen Z really don’t really like work. You don’t want to work very hard. And because you know what? Five o’clock you’re jet out. You’re not a minute there later, Andy Stanley (14:42): You’re not committed. Tim Elmore (14:43): Yeah, you’re not committed. You’re in the middle of the task and you just leave. And this makes us feel like you don’t really want to work. She was quiet for a minute, but very respectfully, she said, Tim, do you know why I leave right at five? I said, no. She goes, because I have to rush off to another job. I’m not making enough to make ends meet here in LA. And then after I’m done with that second job, I rush over to take care of my mom who has stage four cancer. Don’t tell me I don’t have work ethic. And I thought to myself, she probably has greater work ethic than her boss does. You know what I’m saying? Yeah. So that was a myth I bought into it as a stereotype. Another one is, you’re not really committed. We just said that I’m not really loyal. And they would say, well, I want to be committed to something I believe in. But I look at the older generation, they weren’t committed to me when we did those layoffs during the pandemic, the first batch of people that was let go was Gen Z. And so they’re going, you want me to be loyal? And yet you don’t have to be loyal back. Andy Stanley (15:44): What kind of security did you offer? Right? Tim Elmore (15:46): Yes. So there’s a sense at least there’s a sense of Well, that does make sense, even though if I don’t like it, it makes sense. Andy Stanley (15:52): Yeah. Tim, a couple of months ago, we did something we hadn’t done before on the podcast. We did an audience q and a where we received questions from some of our podcast listeners, and there were a few that I didn’t have good answers to. So what did I do? I skipped those. Yes. Actually I took one so I could acknowledge. I have no idea. But here was one we actually saved for you. Okay. We knew you were coming. So this is from William. And so this is the question that William asked. So William wants to know, how do you lead Gen Z well, without patronizing them or trying to act cool. And you covered this in the book. So we saved this question for you because this really is the question, and this is what I want us to spend the rest of our time on. I think everybody is acquainted with the problem and the challenges, whether they’ve experienced this or not. So how then do we lead? And you’ve said a few things that obviously answered this question to some extent. So you’re starting all over and you’re saying, William, here’s what you need to do. So go. Tim Elmore (16:49): Okay, well, William, if you’re listening, I would say this. I talked to a Gen Z recently. It was one of my focus groups, but he said to me something interesting that meant something to me. He said, Tim, the only thing worse than being uncool is being unreal. And what that said to me is, don’t try to be me. Don’t try to be forever 21 nose ring, whatever. I think he was saying, be who you are. If you’re 45 or 55 or 65, be who you are. Don’t try to be a pal, be my leader. Or parents listening. Don’t be a pal parent. But I think the key to leveraging your authority is connection, not position. So I think whoever you are, make sure you’re building a relationship. Make sure you’re listening and building a connection. And by the way, your authority doesn’t come from a badge, it comes from a bridge. And so I’m building a bridge to them. I think they’ll be okay with whatever generation you’re from, if you’re authentic and real. So I have a couple of columns in the book, if you don’t mind. I want to rifle up . Andy Stanley (17:53): Yeah, these are great. Tim Elmore (17:54): So here’s how older generation see authority, and here’s how younger generation see authority. Older generation see it as my position gives me the right to influence. Younger says, your connection gives you the right to influence. Older, we would say, well, older folks have wisdom. They might say, older folks may be irrelevant at this point. I’m not looking to you for the future. Makes sense. Older generations, systems offer order to the chaos. You and I both believe that they might say systems need to be disrupted in order to bring about change. Both are true. Andy Stanley (18:27): To which we say you’re just going to end up with another system. But we can’t say that. Not yet. Yet. We just have to pause and go, oh, that’s right. That’s a novel. Tim Elmore (18:33): And by the, let me interrupt my own self and say this. I think just like good parents, good leaders say, let them try something out and stumble and fall. Exactly. Then they’re going to go, oh, sir, could, what did you want to say to me? But don’t try to correct it before, Andy Stanley (18:49): Because sometimes they stumble and succeed. Tim Elmore (18:52): That’s right. Andy Stanley (18:52): And they will stumble and succeed in areas that we won’t, because I would not allow myself to stumble because I view success differently. And that’s a bit generational. Tim Elmore (19:02): No, you’re right. Keep going. You’re spot on. So older Andy Stanley (19:05): Generations, oh, I read your book. Tim Elmore (19:06): Yeah, there you go. Older generations might say, you need to listen to people at the top. They might say, top people should be listening to us. And it makes sense. Older generations, the top dog wins the debate. They would say The best idea wins the debate. And then finally, older generations might say, the leader is a gatekeeper. The gatekeeper of the power here. They would say, the leader needs to be a guide, not a gatekeeper. Andy Stanley (19:33): Wow. Tim Elmore (19:34): If I think that way, I’m going to make a transfer and connect with that Gen Z or much, much better when I’m not leveraging my badge or my title. And I’m just wanting to get to know who Josh is. Andy Stanley (19:45): And the interesting thing is, because on that list, to some extent, all of that is intuitive. If we reverse roles and we think about when we were in our twenties or even our thirties, and we were in an organization where we felt some of those same things because we all felt some of those same things. So in some ways, this isn’t completely new, but to our podcast listeners, it is new to us. And if we don’t remind ourselves, we revert right back to the things that didn’t work in the previous true generation. Tim Elmore (20:18): Right. Andy Stanley (20:18): So while we’re on this, so let’s talk about feedback. Okay. Yeah. Because I mean, today I had a meeting that I called with two Gen Zers, and they’re doing a project and I’m trying to fund it and put fuel in it and be a part of it. But we had to have a conversation about some things that aren’t working that well. And I found myself nervous, maybe too strong, but I was working really hard not to be the boss, the leader, the person with all the answers. But I had some observations. So talk a little bit about giving feedback, because we have to give feedback, and as you talk about in the book, they really do want it. But our language in the filter that it comes through, we just need to be aware of some things. So feedback that’s, and for parents, this is so relevant. Tim Elmore (21:09): You’re so right, because obviously parents are giving more feedback than probably anybody else in their life. Andy Stanley (21:14): And probably more than they should, maybe. Yeah, that’s true. Especially for older Gen Zs. Go ahead. Go ahead. Tim Elmore (21:19): So as the book title indicates, there’s nine strategies. I pick the nine biggest issues that a manager might have with a young team member. So onboarding, interviewing, managing, et cetera. One of them is on giving feedback, sometimes hard feedback to some who might be a little bit fragile. So the first thing I would say is, and please forgive me if this sounds cliche, but I got to connect before I correct. I always remember getting, and my earliest boss was John Maxwell. He just told me what was wrong. Yes, sir. Let me write that down. Andy Stanley (21:53): He’s direct. Tim Elmore (21:55): That’s very true. Andy Stanley (21:56): I have a tendency to be direct. And the more disturbed I am about something, my directness goes up proportionally, which is a terrible leadership way to lead. Go ahead. Tim Elmore (22:06): We’re humans. We don’t lose our humanity. As we get older, when we ought to self-regulate a little bit better, we tend to get a little more irate. So I try to give very practical steps in this one there. There’s an acronym that I give on giving feedback that’s going to be hard. And you know how forever, never, never, Andy, we’ve used the phrase, this is the leg you got to stand on. Meaning you can go to the bank on this issue. So the letters ALEG, A leg really guide me when I got to have that hard conversation. So the letter A reminds me, I need to start with asking, not telling. I want to tell them what they did wrong. But when I ask, Hey, what were you thinking when you made that decision? Not what were you thinking? Not that, but what were you thinking> (22:47): They feel valued. Oh my gosh. He wants to know what I was doing and what I was thinking. So ask, they feel valued. The letter L, listen, it does very little good to ask anything if we’re not willing to do the work of active listening. When I listen, they feel heard. And that’s the number one thing they say. Gen Z says they want in surveys. I want to have a voice from day one. So listen, they feel heard. The letter E is empathize. This is a skillset I am now currently building in my life. I feel like I always feel bad when someone goes through something hard, but I don’t express it well. So if I empathize saying things like, oh my gosh, I had no idea, or I bet that may have made you feel horrible when that happened. Andy Stanley (23:29): Yeah. You say their emotion. Tim Elmore (23:31): Yes. You say their emotion. And when I do that, they feel understood. Now, do I understand everything about a young black woman being an older white man? No, I don’t. But at least I’m articulating. I want to get you. But when I’ve asked, listened and empathized, and they feel valued, heard and understood, now I can do letter G, which is what I wanted to do from the beginning, which is to guide them. But I’ve earned my right through a bridge, not a badge. I’ve earned it through relationship, not my title, which rarely goes over. Well, I’m telling you, for me at least, it’s worked a hundred percent of the time. Andy Stanley (24:05): So go through it one more time. A LEG. Tim Elmore (24:07): Ask. Ask, Andy Stanley (24:07): Listen, Tim Elmore (24:08): Listen. Empathize, guide. Guide. That’s the Andy Stanley (24:11): Truth. And for those of you who are having marriage problems, we recommend ask, listen, empathize. And that’s probably it. Just ask, listen, empathize Tim Elmore (24:24): And no guide. Andy Stanley (24:25): And no guide. That’s right. Just stay within empathy. Right. Everyone in our studio audience is laughing. Tim Elmore (24:31): Yes they are. Andy Stanley (24:31): Them in they, I can hear them through the glass. Okay. And for parents, again, that’s just great advice. So anything else on feedback? I mean, there’s a lot more in the book. Tim Elmore (24:43): It’s just a lot of relationship. I remember confronting a young Gen Z. We went to a restaurant, so we got away from the office and the noise. We got a back booth. I knew it would be hard. And I remember walking through those steps. He did not get it. He was so angry, and I was the guy there. So he was angry at me. We both ended up crying there in the back booth, but I’m telling you, we came out of it. I remember him telling me two weeks later, thanks. I probably needed to hear what you said. Wow. He had done something completely off base, but I thought, I don’t want to lose him. I value this guy who’s 40 years younger than me. So anyway, I’ll stop. Andy Stanley (25:23): So I’m going to give you an illustration of this that probably won’t make the podcast. This is a negative. This is how not to do it, because I tend to be too direct, especially when I’m really frustrated. So this is five or six years ago, a gentleman, well, I say he’s a gentleman, but kind of a kid in terms of age difference. I needed to talk about something and I didn’t do any of that. I was my very direct self. And there was another person in the room. So there were three of us, and I just felt like I had the authority, we had the relationship. Let’s skip all that relational stuff. I’ve known him for years. I just went right at it. He paused and he said, and I quote, Andy, I don’t know how your kids turned out so well. Tim Elmore (26:06): Oh my goodness. Andy Stanley (26:07): He went from the topic all the way to, based on how he was feeling, he just went from feeling to projected feeling. And the other person in the room just looked mortified. I think we’re about to have an exit interview. How dare you. And I just kind of smiled and thought, you feel very comfortable with me. Why don’t you, anyway. Tim Elmore (26:32): It’s so true. Andy Stanley (26:33): Can we talk a little bit about job hopping? Tim Elmore (26:35): Yeah. Andy Stanley (26:35): This is something that in our organization, we have experience, and because we have multiple churches in our network, this is an issue within the organization. Job hopping within the organization and the campus that gets them is happy. And to the point where we’ve had discussions on, we want everybody to be a free agent, but at some point we’ve hired you to do this. And especially if mean, if they’re leaving to go to a different organization, it’s like, ah, too bad for us. But anyway, what’s up with that? Tim Elmore (27:06): It’s huge. Well, you’re describing something that’s very common no matter what the industry is. I think the average genzer stays three and a half years, and sometimes that’s generous. Someone said to me, the corporate ladder has become the corporate lily pad, so they’re kind of hopping from one thing to another. Now in that sense, they don’t get bored. They do just hop onto another job. But Andy, I found out in my research, they actually want to stay. They actually would like to belong and be at a place and stay there for a while. But there’s certain criteria they have. So number one, they seem to be begging for a culture of belonging. Now, you might remember Brene Brown distinguishes for us the difference between fitting in and belonging fitting in is I came in with my nose ring and purple hair and you’d made me change my hair and change my nose ring and a round peg in a square hole. Belonging is, I can be fully who I am, but I’m who I am on behalf of a larger cause. So I do adjust, but I still belong. (28:08): I think they’re saying, can I be who I am, but on behalf of something bigger? And then I think they do learn along way. I might want to change the color of my hair, or I might want to wear something different to the job. So I would underscore they want a culture of belonging. They can feel stuck. So they want to be growing all the time. They love organizations that offer consistent professional development so you can grow and learn things. I talk about in the book, this may be too philosophical, so I’ll keep it to one minute, but I think most gen Zers, in my experience, need to learn humanity’s social contract. This is an idea that’s thousands of years old Socrates. But the social contract is this tug of war. We feel inside of us between I want to be me and I want to belong. Those are two different tugs. My own kids entered their careers. Well, this is who I am. Well, you just know you got to dance with this. We drive on the right hand side of the road for a reason. We pay our taxes. Those are social contractors. Andy Stanley (29:10): If you want to eat and live indoors, Tim Elmore (29:12): That’s exactly right. Andy Stanley (29:14): You may have to make some adjustments. Tim Elmore (29:16): Right. I heard you say that before. That’s so true. Andy Stanley (29:18): I learned that from my mentor. He’s 82. Tim Elmore (29:20): Okay. Andy Stanley (29:23): He would say, rule number one, everybody needs to eat and live indoors. I’m like, that’s good. Tim Elmore (29:28): Rules, basics. Yeah, they are Andy Stanley (29:29): Keep going. Tim Elmore (29:30): So I think Gen Z has been allowed on social media to be exactly who they are. It doesn’t matter. True. I don’t give up blankety blank. Blank, Andy Stanley (29:40): Except they don’t blankety blank blank. Go ahead. I love your running commentary, which is shocking to our generation. Like, wait, you didn’t just say that. You documented that and don’t care. And I’m embarrassed for you. Tim Elmore (29:53): Yeah. So you posted it, just do it. No, it’s so true. So a lot of ’em are learning that not at 15 when we got our first jobs or whatever, they’re learning it later, and we’re just flabbergasted. So I would even recommend a department manager, you sit down, and I don’t know if you want to take this chapter of the book, but there’s this social contract that says, Josh, I want you to be exactly who you are, but there’s a, it’s not about you. It’s a world that’s bigger and you’ll actually love yourself more when you play your cards that are in your hand for something much bigger. That’s what grabs our heart and makes us want to stay. Andy Stanley (30:28): Well, you’re saying you’re valuable, Tim Elmore (30:30): Yes. Andy Stanley (30:31): You as you are, are valuable. Help us adjust to you, and would you adjust a little bit us? Tim Elmore (30:36): Yes, that’s exactly right. Meet in the middle. Andy Stanley (30:37): Right. And again, maturity allows a person to acknowledge that. Tim Elmore (30:42): That’s so true. Andy Stanley (30:43): And as I’ve heard you talk about, you can’t speed up maturity. Tim Elmore (30:46): Yeah, that’s right. Do you mind if I offer one more quick acronym? Andy Stanley (30:50): Oh, yeah. Tim Elmore (30:50): So I’m trying to give the listeners, handles my acronym on this one on just understanding who they are and making ’em want to stay. It’s the word perks, P-E-R-K-S. So even as early as the job review, I want to find out what are your preferences about this job? Meaning it’s not a deal breaker, but I wish there was a Coke machine in the dining hall or whatever. You might go, you know what, we could do that. So learn the preferences that lets ’em know, oh my gosh, you actually care about what I’m thinking here as a day one guy, the letter is expectations. That’s stronger than preferences. This is what I assume is going to happen. And Andy think if we don’t talk about that early on, eight months later, it’s a cancer, there’s gossip around the office, and what are you doing? Well, you didn’t ever ask me that I wanted. Well, I didn’t know that was a deal. So expectations. My thought on that one is conflict expands based on the distance between expectations and reality. The letter R’S requirements, gen Z is coming in job interviews with demands on how this is going to be, and you’re wondering, why would you demand something you’re 22 with no work experience? Well, they know intuitively. Maybe there’s a worker shortage. There’s fewer of them than millennials. Andy Stanley (32:01): And they have more options. They can sit at home and build an app or find someone to build it for them. Tim Elmore (32:06): That’s so true. Yeah. Plus they’re choosing to not take the quick service restaurant job that maybe our generation did. So it’s a buyer’s market, not a seller’s market. Andy Stanley (32:17): This is, I think, so important for all of us, especially hiring managers or people, because those P-E-R-K-S are exactly the things that our generation thought that we were going to say to them, here’s what we expect. Tim Elmore (32:34): That’s right. Andy Stanley (32:34): Here are the perks we have provided. Aren’t you grateful? Right. It’s almost the very opposite, and we still have to do that. But being sensitive to the fact that it really helps us help them if we will open the door to finding out what they’re thinking in those terms. Tim Elmore (32:50): You’re exactly right. In fact, in the book I say it does go both ways. The heart patch needs to say, here’s the deal, buddy. Here’s what we’re making widgets. You okay with that? So the letter K is the word keys. I really think it’s powerful when we learn the keys to their heart. What do you love? What are you passionate about? You like dogs, you like baseball cards, but I think we got to learn something beyond the job about them. And then of course, the letter, the letter S is salary. You ought to be talking about compensation does that square. But if it goes both ways, you avoid so many complications later by doing it upfront. Andy Stanley (33:24): So go through ’em again. Tim Elmore (33:26): P, preferences, preferences, expectations, requirements, which by the way might help you go, you know what? That’s never going to happen here. I need to show you the door right now. Wish you the best keys. Keys to their heart, and then salary. I think those are five keys that makes us great. Andy Stanley (33:40): That’s great. Regardless of who we’re talking to. Tim Elmore (33:43): Yeah, I hope so. Andy Stanley (33:44): Yeah. Well, unmet expectations is to your point, that energy’s going to go somewhere. And if it stays within the organization, it’s not healthy. Okay. Last thing. You have been writing and speaking in this space for decades, and you really are the expert, the go-to person, and that’s why we love having you, Tim, and it’s why I love texting with you and just knowing that I can call you when we hit a bump in these areas in spite of all of this. Oh, no. It seems like the sky’s not falling, but you’re so optimistic about the future. Talk a little bit about that, just you personally, because you’ve buried yourself in all this data, and yet at the same time, you don’t seem worried about it. Tim Elmore (34:25): No, I’m really not. In fact, I rose from this latest research, more hopeful than ever. You and I started our careers working with youth, working with students, and students are students. In some ways, adolescents are adolescents, but I’m more hopeful now than I’ve ever been because of my time with them. So here’s a couple of thoughts. One, I now go, welcome to the team. You’re going to make me a better leader. (34:50): I don’t say it, but I know you’re the sandpaper on my leadership. I didn’t know I needed. But Andy, in the book, I share a story that may be a great way to wrap this up. Way back when we were kids, the United States pulled something off that we had never pulled off before. NASA put a man on the moon. Remember that? Yes. We were both young. We were both in elementary school. Well, it was early on in that decade when John F. Kennedy twice said, in a speech, we’re going to put a man on the moon by the end of the decade. What many people don’t know is when he made that speech, we didn’t even have the technology to do such a, Andy Stanley (35:27): Not even close, Tim Elmore (35:28): Not even close. So the folks in Houston had to update and upgrade all their technology. They go to MIT and Purdue and Georgia Tech and find grads and say, come on in. We can need these new computers. Well, they quickly understood. This is going to sound familiar now that the young interns knew the technology better than the 57-year-old. Surprise. Surprise, right Guy in charge. Yeah. So NASA pivoted over the 1960s and put the young people as operators in Houston, and the older generations that had been in charge were still in charge, but they call themselves sim soups, simulator supervisors we’re the mentors. You guys do the work. Andy, in July of 1969, when Neil Armstrong and Buzzled and walked out on the moon, the average age of the guy that was in charge of doing that 27 years old. Wow, I’m not kidding. And the guy that was in charge that said, go not know was Jack Garmin, 23 years old. The guy that pulled the trigger was one year out of college. College. Andy Stanley (36:28): You’re making this up. Tim Elmore (36:29): No, I’m not. Andy Stanley (36:30): Wait, one year out of college. Tim Elmore (36:32): Yeah, 23. Jack Garmin, in fact, he’s around today. He was on an interview on a podcast talking about, yeah, we don’t know what we’re doing, but we were willing to take a risk and do this. And we said we thought we could do it, but I’m thinking, what if we became nasa? Again, we need to be the mentors, but those young men and women, they see something we don’t see in 2030 and 2035, and they have natural intuition. So may I become a sim soup and may they become the operator, and we’re cheering ’em on and guiding them as they make those big decisions that literally change the world. Andy Stanley (37:03): Goodness. That’s amazing. Super emotional. Yeah. Well, Tim, once again, you’ve blown our minds inspired and encouraged us. The book is, the Future Begins with Z, it comes out Tim Elmore (37:17): November 4th. Andy Stanley (37:17): November 4th. Yes. You pre-order can. Yep. I have the Advanced Reader copy. And lemme tell you what I’m going to do as a result of what I’ve read in our discussion today. We’re working on a project here, and again, it has to do with this group I’ve been meeting with, I may call you and have you come to our next meeting and talk through some of these things with us because it’s that big of a deal. We want to get it right, and I want to keep all the Gen Z that we have and we have a bunch of ’em. Yes, you do. Anyway, thank you so much to our podcast audience. You can pre-order the book now. I highly recommend that you do, and as always, we will link to all of that information in the show notes. Thanks so much for listening. And before we leave, we do have one ask, and that is to subscribe By subscribing to the podcast, you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep improving, bringing in great guests like Tim and creating great content to help you as a leader go further faster. Also, be sure to check out the Andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary of our discussion, plus questions for reflection and group discussion. And don’t forget to join us next week when Susie and I talk about Tim rather than to Tim on our reverb episode where we will dig even deeper on this topic on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast. Comments are closed.