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Andy Stanley (00:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further fast drive Andy. And before we jump into today's content, I want to tell you about an offer from our friends at belay. Just like my days, your days are packed. The executive level work just keeps getting pushed aside and you're not seeing the same results and you end up exhausted. And the truth is, that's more than dedication. That's actually, well, that starts to feel like burnout, right? Thankfully, there is a solution. BELAY has helped over 10,000 leaders reclaim hours every week to focus on what matters most, and that's one of our biggest challenges as leaders being able to focus on the things that we know make the biggest difference. Blaze assistance and financial experts are vetted US-based and personally matched to your unique needs, whether that's administrative support, marketing help, or even financial strategy. Belay has the right hire for you and to help you out. Belay is offering free downloads of their resource, the ultimate Guide to Stopping Executive Burnout. Inside, you'll learn how to identify the cause of your burnout, where your time is really going, and what actions you can take to alleviate your workload. So don't miss this offer. To get your free guide, just text Andy, a NDY, to 5 5 1 2 3. That's a NDY to 5 5 1 2 3 to start delegating and free up your time with belay. And now here's today's podcast episode.
(01:34):
Today we're talking about what is often a neglected facet of leadership. And I'll be honest when the phrase we're going to talk about in just a few minutes, the first time I heard it, I thought, oh brother, but this is so important. And when it's neglected, we pay in our staff's pay. And it's actually one of the best predictors of performance, which was surprising to me. Today we're going to talk about don't roll your eyes, psychological safety. And here's what I know about you. I know we have it met, but at some point in your career, psychological safety was extremely important to you. And depending on where you are in your organization in terms of org chart, perhaps it is still very important to you, but perhaps you didn't have this language for it. I know that I didn't. So psychological safety determines whether or not you spoke up in a meeting.
(02:28):
It determines whether or not you came to an associate's defense, maybe in a meeting. It determines how honest you are with the people you work with and the people you work for. And psychological safety creates an environment where people are free. And this is why it's so important for leaders. Psychological safety creates an environment where people are free to share their initial thoughts and ideas without fear of retribution, which is so important to me. But maybe most importantly, and this is kind of another topic for another day, where there is psychological safety, people feel free, bring their intuition to the table because as we've talked about before, intuition is rarely defensible initially because of the nature of intuition and where there's no psychological safety, no one's about to share ideas, they fear they might be pressured to defend. And the primary way leaders create that kind of safety is through how we communicate. Today I'm joined by my friend and author Charles Duhigg, to talk about this important topic. Charles, welcome back to the podcast.
Charles Duhigg (03:30):
Thank you for having me, Andy. This is such a treat every time I get to talk to you. Thank you again for having me on.
Andy Stanley (03:35):
Well, every time I talk to you, I find myself wanting to take notes while you talk, and then I lose track of my script. Anyway, so for those of you who don't know, Charles is a Pulitzer Prize winning reporter and New York Times bestselling author, multiple books including The Power of Habit, which is when I was introduced to his work, and it spent over three years on the New York Times bestsellers list. Last time we were together, we discussed his latest book, super Communicators subtitle, how to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. And Charles has been with us for a couple of live events as well, and he's the real deal, and I'm so excited to have him back. So back in 2000, I guess 24, we unpacked bits and pieces of your book, super Communicators, which challenged the way that so many leaders think about communication, but there was a lot we didn't get into.
(04:26):
So today, I want to pull on one specific thread from your work in that area that has, as I said, up front has massive implications for performance and leadership. Again, as we mentioned at the top, you found in your research that one of the most powerful drivers of performance is psychological safety, which is such a soft thing. I think it's one of those things that for some people, leaders, they just roll their eyes. But you talk about the relationship between that and leadership. And I know, again, I'm doubling down on this psychological safety sounds a bit like an HR initiative rather than a performance strategy, but you suggest that is not the case. So let's just start there. How do you define psychological safety and relate that to the importance of leadership?
Charles Duhigg (05:12):
It's a great question. And honestly, this topic is so important not only to business leaders, but to family leaders, to community leaders. So in psychological safety, it's a cumbersome phrase. It sounds like we're trying to make something that should be a 50 cent idea into a $10 phrase,
(05:31):
And it comes from academics. But what it really means is that when I feel psychological safety, I feel like I can bring my full self to work. I can show up and I can go to a meeting and I can be who I am, and when I feel like I can bring my full self to work, you're exactly right. What it unlocks is not only my intuition and my great ideas, it unlocks me being able to bring my values to that table, being able to hear you better because I'm not worrying about what you might think if I say something in response, it allows ideas to generate more quickly. Psychological safety is what we all felt when we belonged to a team, and we just actually looked forward to the meetings. We've all belonged to one team where we saw it on our calendar and we were like, oh God, I don't want to show up for that. And then we've all belong to a team where we see it on a calendar and we think, oh, I can't wait. This is going to be great.
Andy Stanley (06:22):
Yeah, it's life giving.
Charles Duhigg (06:23):
Exactly. Exactly. It generates something for us rather than subtracts. That is psychological safety. And when you as a leader can create that among your team members, among your employees, among your community, you are giving them a gift and you're getting the best work from them because of jobs
Andy Stanley (06:42):
And the best ideas and the ideas, the thought that somebody is sitting in a meeting with me that I'm leading and they have an idea and they're sitting there trying to figure out how do I say this perfectly or how do I get this out the right way? Or what are people going to think that's a loss to the team. But as the leader, as we're about to talk about, it's really up to me to create a sense where people feel safe. And again, to be clear, we're not talking about insecure people. We're just talking about all of us. Nobody wants to look dumb, nobody wants to sound stupid. But the last thing we want for us not to give permission or create an environment where those ideas surface in the book, we might have talked about this a little bit, but I want to go back to it even if we did in super communicators, you talk about the matching principle that in every conversation, every conversation is either practical, emotional, or somewhat about identity. And if we fail to match, we disconnect and we miss each other completely. And I do remember us talking about this a little bit because I thought about my kids. So talk just a little bit about that principle as it relates
Charles Duhigg (07:48):
To this. Yeah, no, absolutely. And there's a great demonstration of this because there are a handful of things that leaders can do to create psychological safety. And one of them, as you pointed out, is this matching. If you go into a meeting, and it's going to be a tough meeting, you guys are talking about budgets, and someone on your team starts the meeting by saying, look, I want to go over the numbers. I'm really anxious. If we don't get this right, we're going to have to do layoffs. And I do not want to lay off any of my people. These are people who are important to me. Now, in a situation like that, you might be thinking, oh, we should have a practical conversation. We're talking about the budget, we're talking about numbers. But if you listen closely, what that employee just told you is that they're feeling anxious.
(08:31):
That for them, this is at first an emotional conversation. They need to know that you hear their anxiety, you hear their emotions, and until you actually match that and show them that you are hearing that, you're not going to be able to talk about the practicalities. You're not going to be able to talk about the numbers because every time you bring up a number, they're going to respond with something emotional. And so in a situation like that, and we've all been in situations like this as a leader, where it seems like it should be a practical conversation, but our employee is clearly reacting emotionally. What we have to do is we have to acknowledge those emotions. We have to say, look, I hear what you're saying that you're concerned, and I want you to know I am also concerned. I care about these people. I hear you saying that your values are stronger than your desire just to make profits, but we also have to do the right thing for the company.
(09:19):
And I want you to know I'm shoulder to shoulder with you in the emotions that we're going to have to go through to get the right budget. Now, if you don't mind, let's dive into the numbers and see what they say. Right? In other words, do I have your permission to move from an emotional conversation to a practical conversation? When you do that, it changes everything because that employee says to themselves, oh, I know that my boss is listening to me. And I know that even if we're talking about the numbers that they understand, there's an emotional aspect of this for me that we have to discuss.
Andy Stanley (09:53):
So some of us are naturally good at that, and some of us, it never crosses our mind because I have an agenda in front of me and the clock is ticking. And I don't think anybody that would hear what you just said would say That's not important. But it is so hard sometimes in a professional environment to take a deep breath and allow that to be expressed and then to pause and value it before just moving on.
Charles Duhigg (10:21):
Absolutely.
Andy Stanley (10:22):
Talk a little bit in my notes. I wrote the question, so psychological safety is created through the way we communicate. The next question, of course, is what kind of communication actually signal safety? And you just gave us an illustration, and part of that is an illustration of vulnerability. Vulnerability in the sense of, oh, yeah, I feel that as well. What else do we do?
Charles Duhigg (10:43):
So there's two main things that a leader can do that are very, very tactical to create psychological safety and to remind themselves to have that kind of conversation, right? Most business leaders got to be business leaders because they are good at following the agenda. They're good at getting stuff done, executing. So the first thing that we know creates psychological safety, particularly in a team or in a meeting, is what's known as equality in conversational turn taking.
Andy Stanley (11:09):
Okay, say that again?
Charles Duhigg (11:11):
Equality. Equality in conversational turn taking. And again, that's a fancy phrase. What it basically means is everyone in the room is speaking up. Now, that doesn't mean people have to speak up in equal measure, right? It's not saying the same number of words, but it does mean if you're in a meeting and you see someone and they haven't said anything for the last 10 minutes and they haven't said anything the whole meeting, and you stop you and say, Jim, I'm just curious. I know that you probably have some strong thoughts on this. Can you share with us what you're thinking when you draw them out and you get everyone to speak up, what you're going to hear is that first of all, they feel like they're present and that they're being listened to.
(11:49):
But secondly, when you do that, you're going to start hearing those code words. You're going to start hearing someone say, I'm anxious, I'm worried. Or The thing that would make me really, really happy is, or I'm really excited about that. When we start hearing those words that are emotional words, it should be a little trigger in our head to say, okay, take a second and just dive into that a little bit more. It doesn't have to be more than 30 seconds that we're spending on it, but let's just dive in to show them that we're hearing what they're actually saying, that there's some emotion here that's as important to them as the agenda. The second tactic that we know creates psychological safety is what's known as ostentatious listening. And ostentatious listening is great because what it means is that as a leader, if I prove to you that I'm listening, if I say, okay, Andy, here's what I heard you just say, tell me if I'm getting this right.
(12:43):
Or I say, Andy, you brought up this really interesting idea just a couple of minutes ago, and it made me think of something as a leader, if I prove that I'm listening, everyone in the room will start imitating me and we'll start listening to each other more closely. And the reason why this is so powerful is because it is a reminding function. If you say, I'm really anxious about having to do layoffs, and I ostentatiously listen to you, and I say, you know what I hear you saying is that this is causing you some anxiety that you're worried about what's going to happen. I don't even have to understand your emotions. I'm just repeating back what I heard you say to prove that I'm listening. And it has the same effect.
Andy Stanley (13:21):
Yeah. If I feel like you understand me, I'm just going to be more open in general, and I think I do a good job at this. You'd have to ask the other people listening into this conversation. But one of the things I'm just sensitive to is if there's seven or eight or nine people around the table, there are people who are not listening. They're just waiting to have their turn to say something. And when I sense that somebody finishes and the next person just jumps in immediately and moves on, that intuitively bothers me. And I often, I don't know if it's a good habit or not, and I have to be careful with my body language when I do this, but sometimes I'll kind of wave them off and say, wait, wait, wait just a minute, and I will go back to the person that just finished, because I feel like what they just said is about to be discounted because instead of somebody building on or acknowledging it, they're just moving on to the next thing they want to say. And so I think intuitively and pretty good at again, hitting the pause and say, wait, wait, before you go on. So Bill, what you're saying is to your point, kind of reiterating to let him know, okay, I know the next person is ready to move this on, but I want you to know I heard you now let's take this onto the next person. So there's just some of those skills over time that I think is part of what you're talking about. Does that sound
Charles Duhigg (14:39):
Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And we've all been on the other side of that, right? Where we say something and we've thought about it a lot, and someone says, okay, but here's my idea. And they jump right in.
Andy Stanley (14:49):
Exactly.
Charles Duhigg (14:49):
And someone stops.
Andy Stanley (14:51):
You don't know if you were heard.
Charles Duhigg (14:52):
Exactly. And when the leader of that meeting stops and says, actually, before we move on, let's just make sure we're hearing what Bill is saying here because this seems important. It feels wonderful. Which actually, can I ask you a question? So I imagine a bunch of people come in to your organization, and this might be the first time that they're working in a faith-based organization. They might have come from the professional world and they might be wondering what the culture is. How do you create psychological safety? How do you transmit the culture of the church that creates the psychological safety for new employees?
Andy Stanley (15:32):
So here's what I wrote down because you did ask me this question ahead of time. We do a new staff orientation like a lot of companies do. And in my part of the new staff orientation, I talk specifically about the value of their fresh eyes and their fresh ears in our organization. And I say to them, the longer you're in a climate or a culture, the less aware you are of it. And I've been in our culture for 30 years. I'm completely unaware of our culture because I've adjusted. But as new employees, you bring fresh eyes and fresh years, and we want to know what you see, and we want to know what you hear. So then they get a list of questions from our office after they're with us three months where they are evaluating their experience with us.
Charles Duhigg (16:17):
Oh, interesting.
Andy Stanley (16:18):
And then a year after they've been with us a year, they get another list of questions. And then after a year, they're part of the problem. They become part of not the problem, but they're part of the culture. And because I emphasize that it's my way of saying, Hey, and then I say this, I say, look, nobody is more concerned about the success of this organization in this organization other than me. I mean, I was part of the team that started it. And then I say, when you hear the little voice whispering to you, they don't care. They don't want to know. They're never going to change. I need you to ignore that voice because I'm telling you, we want to know, and we do care. And change may not happen as quickly as you think it should, but I promise you we want to hear.
(17:04):
And so these questions that we're going to send you, it's your opportunity to tell us what you see in here so we can make the organization better. And it's so important to me that new staff hear that from me, that basically don't try to read our minds and don't take what happened in your last job or the last marketplace situation you had. Don't bring that here. We really do care. And then we do, and again, a lot of companies do this. We do staff surveys every year, and one of the things I say is, we really would love for you to put your name on the survey because we want to be able to follow up. You're not going to get in trouble. And we're looking for trends, and this is your way to help us make the organization better. And again, everybody's different. Everybody has different level of personal security and past hurt and previous job experience, but to the degree that I can convince people, we really do want this to be a great place to work, and consequently, we can't make it better without your input. There's no bad information and there's no bad perspectives. We sincerely want to know. I think the more we can go back to that over and over and then actually reward it,
(18:16):
Respond, answer those questions, and on multiple occasions through the years, I'll get one of those three month evaluations. Somebody will, my assistant will say, Andy, I think you need to read this one. And I'll say, Hey, I am not sure who this person is. They're at a different campus or I don't remember them. There were 20 people in the room, and I'll ask them to come in. Of course they think they're in the principal's office. I'm like, no, no, no, you're not in trouble. I think we're in trouble. And I want you to help me understand what you meant when you wrote this, because I think you're onto something and we want to make it better. And here's what I discovered years ago. That individual is going to share that conversation. They're going to go back. They've already told somebody, Hey, I'm going to Andy's office, pray for me. And I don't know if, and so people are going to say, well, what happened? And it'll be like, well, he read my evaluation and wanted to know more about it. So there's a bit of symbolic leadership in that, but we really do want to care. And I think this at least leans toward creating some psychological safety.
Charles Duhigg (19:21):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And what I loved about what you just said, and I think it's worth noting, symbolic leadership is leadership, right? It's huge when we do things because we want other people to notice it. That's what a leader does. A leader transmits through their actions, what our values are and what our beliefs are and what our culture is.
Andy Stanley (19:41):
And we must, I think it's okay, and people can take this the wrong way. We must be seen doing good. It's not just we need to do good, but there's a sense in which for the right reason, we need to be seen doing good. Because to the point of this conversation, it communicates, Hey, this is a safe place. They're listening. Nobody gets in trouble for telling the truth or pointing out something that they're concerned about.
Charles Duhigg (20:05):
And I think you used a really important word, which is we reward, right? We reward the people who bring us the bad news or the disappointing news as humans. And we know this from the power of habit. As humans, we do what brings us rewards. It's just our brain is literally programmed that when we get in a reward from a behavior, that behavior gets easier and easier and easier. And it's hard. It's hard to criticize your boss. It's hard to say, Hey, look, I love working here, but here's this thing that I don't think we're doing right, and it's driving me crazy. You're worried you're going to offend someone. When we do something hard, our brain is saying, ah, I'm worried about getting punished. I'm not even thinking of a reward. And when you step in and you say to that person, thank you for bringing this to me. This is one of the most important things you could have said to me. And then you say to the whole organization, I want you to know this person was brave enough to bring this to me. And it really helped. What you're doing at that moment is you are building the culture because the words don't matter. It's what you do that really matters.
Andy Stanley (21:08):
Yep. That's the goal. That's why when you said you wanted to talk about this again years ago, I may have discounted this as again, like an HR thing or it is just too soft, but it is extremely important. So yeah.
(21:19):
How often when you do those surveys, how often are you getting surprised by what people are saying three months in?
(21:26):
Well, the good thing about it is we have a director of staff culture here who that's their full-time job and he meets every single new employee, every single intern. And so we're able to take this information, and because we have eight churches on the north side of the city, we're looking for trends. If something shows up two or three times at a campus, we know we have a campus problem. If it shows up two or three times across the organization, we know we have a central problem. So this really does help us really monitor our staff culture. So we pay very close attention to those things. And generally speaking, it's kind of the same thing. It's communication. We wish we don't feel like we're communicated with enough and we think this is a good thing. People are looking for advancement. They want to know, how do I advance in this organization?
(22:14):
And then to be able to go back and say, we heard you, or we're working on that, here's an answer, or we don't have an answer. The other, I don't know if this fits or not, but the church I came out of 30 years ago, I had no place to take my frustration. So I took them home and at some point Sandra's like, I can't help you with that. I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to gossip. So one of the first things we did when we started the organization, we just had our 30th anniversary, is we set up a system. We called them staff coaches back then, we call them staff advisors now, and this is another thing we talked to our new employees about. We're like, look, we don't want you to take your frustrations home. So here is a list of staff advisors, they're at multiple campuses.
(23:00):
These are super mature people, and whatever you say to them will be kept in confidence, and they'll either coach you through how to approach your manager or somebody else in the organization. They may go with you to approach somebody. This is the way I say it. When you find yourself driving home day after day, having the same imaginary conversations with the same person, let us help diffuse that. Because sometimes you just don't know what to do. And sometimes people don't feel safe approaching somebody or they have information and they're like, oh, wow, I think I see something nobody else sees. What do I do with this? So we have built into our culture, these staff advisors, and it is a hundred percent confidential. And then again, we track what are the type, not the people or the details, but what are the types of things that our staff advisors are helping people walk through again to circle back around. And if we can address those things systematically, we do. So those are just some of the things.
Charles Duhigg (23:59):
That's really, really smart. And what I particularly like about that is there's a bunch of research, and I'm going to use this word gossip, right? Most gossip is bad, but there's a bunch of research looking at office gossip. And what they mean by office gossip is they mean the things you say to each other outside of the meeting. When we're having lunch together, when we're on the water cooler, when we're carpooling together, the things we say to each other, it turns out those are more influential on a company's culture than what the CEO says about the culture. Which makes sense, right? Because it does. Yeah, trick there's, it's the trickle down. It's the trickle down, and there's a bunch of unwritten rules when someone says, can you believe that so-and-so did such and such? You start to learn, think to yourself, oh, the culture of this place where I work is that we don't do that thing. And when this kind of information sharing becomes gossip, it can be really, really damaging. But when it has channels, because we all have that instinct, we all sometimes going a little bit crazy, sometimes we just need to just vent to someone
(25:02):
When we have channels to do that, where that person is trained and mature enough and ready, and they have this infrastructure around them where they say, I can absorb some of your angst right now and I can help you offset it, and if there's a problem, I can help you solve it. That means that we get all the benefits of office gossip without the gossip.
Andy Stanley (25:23):
And so we have created a safe pathway for that. Now, there are people who just feel like, oh, that means to have to ask a staff advisor means I'm weak. There's something wrong with me. And we try to reiterate, no, I'm trying to save your spouse from having to help you solve a problem. I've been there. I get that. So we encourage people to take advantage of that. The other thing that years ago I did a talk for our staff that has become something we go back to over and over where I talk about the importance of trust, and I set it up as the contrast between trust and suspicion. Basically, when there's a gap between what a person expects and what a person experiences, we choose what to put in that gap. We don't think we do, but we have a choice. I can choose to trust.
(26:08):
I can choose to assume the best, or I can choose to assume the worst. And so one of the other things I talked to new staff about is, look, trust is the currency of relationship, and we are asking you to stretch as far as you can to trust the people that you work with. And when you can't trust anymore, then we talk about that. But this whole idea of choosing to give people a generous explanation if she's late, well, that doesn't mean she's irresponsible. If we can get in the habit of creating a generous explanation for people, a culture of trust is a culture where people, again, feel safe. That principle is so central. In fact, when I do newer employee orientations, Billy Phoenix, who's our director of culture, his question oftentimes is, Andy, what's the one thing you want new staff to know? And that's what I talk about. I said, I want you to get in the habit of trusting the people you work with and trusting us, and here's what to do when you can't. But if you can imagine how much better this culture will be if we choose to trust to give each other a generous explanation.
Charles Duhigg (27:17):
I agree a hundred percent. And it gets to the fact that sometimes we misunderstand what trust is because we think trust means, oh, that person's going to agree with me. That person has my back, that person's going to back me up. That's not trust. Trust means if you disagree with me, if you think I'm on the wrong path, that you are going to take the time to explain to me why you believe what you believe, and you're going to convey to me that you have my best interests at heart, that you're trying to make me more successful. So to trust someone does not mean that we agree with 'em all the time. It doesn't mean that we avoid saying the hard things. To trust means that we say, I'm going to say the hard thing, but I want you to know at the end of the day, I'm rooting for you. I'm telling you this because I want you to succeed, and it's incredibly important.
Andy Stanley (28:03):
Yeah. I need to ask you about this because I find myself doubting you, and I don't want to doubt you. So explain this behavior to me. I'm just going to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I am at a point where I need an explanation, and that's a better approach, even if the person proves to be untrustworthy.
Charles Duhigg (28:22):
Yeah, no, absolutely.
Andy Stanley (28:23):
Alright, so do you want to talk about looping for understanding?
Charles Duhigg (28:28):
Sure, yeah. So when we talk about this ostentatious listening, it can be hard sometimes it can feel very unnatural,
(28:35):
Particularly when we're in the hardest conversations. When you and I disagree about something when we're having a fight, when it's a really high stakes conversation because someone might win, someone might lose, and it could have real consequences at that moment. This ostentatious listening, proving we're listening becomes even more important, but it also becomes harder. And so there's this technique that people have worked out called looping for understanding. That's just something you can fall back on really easily. And it has three steps. Step one is I'm going to ask you a question instead of starting by telling you what I think, I'm going to start by asking you a question, and hopefully it's going to be a question that is open-ended that gives you a chance to talk about your values or your beliefs or your experiences, why this thing is so important to you. And I'm just going to let you talk.
(29:24):
I'm just going to listen. Then when you've answered the question, here's what I'm going to do. This is step two, I'm going to repeat back in my own words what I heard you say. And the key here is I'm not trying to mimic you, right? I'm not trying to say the same words that you said. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to prove to you that not only I heard what you said, but I've been thinking about it. So I'm going to say, Andy, what I heard you say was this thing. And it sounds like one of the issues that for you is that you really care about your employees and you want them to feel, to feel like they belong. If I'm getting this right, you tell them that you want them to assume the best of all of their coworkers, assume the best intent.
Andy Stanley (30:06):
Right.
Charles Duhigg (30:07):
What I've done right there is I've proven to you not only am I listening, but I'm paying attention, I'm processing it. That's step two. Then step three is before I say anything else, I say, lemme just ask you, did I get that right? Do I understand you? Because what I'm doing in that moment is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening. And one of the things that we know about human psychology and how our brains are set up is that if you acknowledge that I was listening to you, you become more likely to listen to me in return. It's a basic instinct of social reciprocity that all of us have. So these three steps, ask a question, repeat back what you heard the person say. Ask them if you got it right. This loop for understanding is the thing that makes the other person feel listened to, particularly in the hardest conversations.
Andy Stanley (30:58):
I'm telling you, I got three adult kids who are all married, and this is so important for parenting for sure, right? There's no equality, parent child, it's two different relationships. It's just so easy to power up in those relationships.
Charles Duhigg (31:14):
Oh, absolutely. And my kids, your kids are a little bit older than mine, so I'm curious if you have any tips on this. My kids come to me, they're both teenagers, and they bring up something that's bothering them, and my instinct is to try and solve it for them. Exactly. Say, oh, here's what you should do. Here's the answer, and that's not the right thing to do, but I'm their dad. I want to save them agony. But the right thing to do is to ask a question. When he said that to you, how did that make you feel? Because then not only what am I doing is I'm showing them that I'm actually paying attention, I'm also training them how to solve problems on their own, which is, of course, as parents, our most important job.
Andy Stanley (31:56):
That is the most important job. So this kind of sets us over this next question, and super communicators, you made this statement, and we did talk about this a little bit, that super communicators ask 10 to 20 times more questions than the average person. And we just kind of covered that a little bit, but you say that's in an effort to uncover values, beliefs, motivations, what's really going on? That's a lot of questions.
Charles Duhigg (32:21):
It's a lot of questions. It's a lot of questions, but now that you look for it, you'll notice that your favorite communicators do it. And some of those questions that they ask are things like they're just invitations. They're like, oh, what'd you think about that? Or, oh, did you see that movie? Did you see that show on TV last night? They're just inviting you into the conversations.
Andy Stanley (32:36):
Gotcha, gotcha.
Charles Duhigg (32:38):
But there's these other questions that are more powerful, which are known again within psychology as deep questions and a deep question, as I mentioned, is something that asks us to discuss our values or beliefs or our experiences, and that can sound kind of intimidating to people. If I just met you, I'm at a party and I'm making small talk with you. Am I going to ask you about your values, beliefs, and experiences? But it's as simple as if you meet someone at their party and you say, oh, what do you do for a living? And they say, oh, I'm a doctor. You could ask them, oh, really? What hospital do you work at? Or you could ask them, oh, really? What made you decide to become a doctor? Right? That second question, that second question is an invitation to talk about values or beliefs or experiences.
(33:19):
I guarantee you that person's going to say something like, when I was a kid, I saw my dad get sick, and I always wanted to be a healer, or I just love the job because when I go in every day, I get to help people. Now they're telling us something about who they really are, and those questions, those deep questions. What's powerful about them is that not only have I allowed someone to bring their whole self to this conversation, not only am I creating that psychological safety we talked about, but it also allows me to reciprocate because the most natural thing on earth is to say, oh, really? That's why you became a doctor. When I was young, I saw my uncle get arrested, and that's why I became a lawyer. I wanted to be someone who fought for the little guy. Now, suddenly we're having a real conversation,
(34:06):
And it's not because either of us asked something really personal or really deep, but we asked a question that invited the other person to say something real. And this is what super communicators do, is they ask deep questions. And one of the things I've noticed from spending time with you is that you very naturally and casually ask deep questions, which I think as a man of faith, there's probably some training there vocationally to be prepared to ask those questions, but it just feels so good. It makes the other person feel like you're someone who cares about them.
Andy Stanley (34:38):
So let me tell you a quick story about that. I'll tell you the first time I remember encountering this, and it had a profound impact on me. There's a pastor in Texas, his name is Chuck Swindoll. I don't know if you've heard of Chuck. Chuck had just retired, I think he's 90. When I was in seminary, 40 something years ago, I guess Chuck Swindall, who wrote a gazillion books, he is a hero, came to speak at our seminary, and he spoke in our chapel. When he finished, he stepped down at the front and students, all we lined up, he's a hero. And my dad also was also a famous pastor. So I grew up with front row seat for this dynamic when people would meet someone famous and they don't know what to say and they're nervous. So I literally, I got in the back of the lines, probably 45 guys that lined up to shake window's hand.
(35:30):
So I waited to the very end and just watched and listened and listened and listened and listened. So now I get up there with my buddy Larry. We're the last two, literally the last two. I know he's tired. He's just spoke for 40 minutes. He just spoke to however many men and women in Lyme. And Chuck s Wendall asked us, where are we from? Why did we come to this school? He did exactly what you're talking about, and here's a famous person asking me questions about me. And before I knew it, I'm doing too much of the talking, which I had decided I wouldn't do. I'd seen people do that with my dad, but so I believe he was so sincere. I've never forgotten that. It is not intuitive for me, but that conversation 40 something years ago had a profound impact on me. As I think about when we're, and all of us have people in our lives who they have to look up to us either because we're their boss, their manager, we're the older, we're the granddad, whatever that is. But when a person who we view that has an elevated status expresses personal interest in us, it is so powerful.
Charles Duhigg (36:37):
It is.
Andy Stanley (36:37):
And you find yourself saying things or confessing things or acknowledging things that surprise you. I'll never forget that conversation. And so many times when I'm in a hurry or somebody interrupts me or comes up to me with one of my kids and I'm at a retail outlet somewhere, I just remember the power of those few short minutes with Chuck Swindoll, and it profoundly impacted me. So that's where it began.
Charles Duhigg (37:04):
It's like someone turns on the sun and shines it shines on you.
Andy Stanley (37:08):
That's a great analogy, yes!
Charles Duhigg (37:10):
And what I love is that now that you're on the other side of that equation, that Chuck probably was so thankful that you answered those questions. He says the same thing over and over and over again, right? It's not fun to tell my story and my ideas 40 different times. What's fun is to hear about you, to learn about why you're at the seminary, what brought you here. It's inspiring. Yeah, I love that.
Andy Stanley (37:35):
And going back to the point of the conversation, here I am in front of somebody who's very intimidating, who I want to impress, who I really want not to say something dumb, and I immediately felt so safe because he did exactly what you said. He asked those deeper questions, and then he let Larry and I talk and wow.
Charles Duhigg (37:56):
Okay, so can I ask you something on this? Which is, because we've been talking a lot about safety. I imagine that there are times with your employees that you have to have conversations that are hard conversations. Maybe you have to tell someone like, this position isn't working out, you're not doing the job at the quality. I was hoping when you're in those tough conversations and you know that it's going to feel unsafe to some degree, it's just tough. What do you do in that conversation to make it as easy for yourself and for the other person and make it as safe as possible?
Andy Stanley (38:32):
I've gotten in the habit of assuming, and it kind of goes back to what we teach, assuming that everything everybody does makes perfect sense to them. So if it doesn't make sense to me, there's something I don't know. So I just try to start there. I mean, you've done this or you've done it four times or so. Help me. You're a smart person. You're a rational person. So help me understand why you do this, because there may be something I'm missing because this doesn't make sense to me, but I know it makes sense to you. So I'm going to, again, I'm just assuming the best, but there's something I don't understand. So if it's a situation where I can begin that way to acknowledge, I don't think you're bad. I don't think you're crazy. I don't think you're incompetent. I just don't understand this behavior.
(39:18):
That's an on-ramp. And again, sometimes people explain it and you're like, oh, actually, maybe you're doing the right thing. I mean, seriously. I mean sometimes I just don't know. But beyond that, to the degree that culturally we have over and over and over expressed and created an environment where we do want to hear from you, we do want you to succeed. We do want you to be here. As I say to our new employees, I want this to be the best job you ever have when you retire from whatever you do, I want you to look back at your time in our organization and say, you know what? I did a lot of things in my life that was the best organization I ever worked with. That was the best culture I ever worked in. And then I say to them, because of what we do, and I said, I'm not talking about Sunday morning that part, I'm talking about the Monday through Friday part.
(40:06):
I want this to be the best place you've ever worked. Help us create that. So I think to the degree that we reiterate those things over and over and over, the staff surveys, all the staff, when it comes time for me in particular, or us to have a hard conversation with somebody, hopefully we have laid the groundwork for them to know, we really do care. We care about you. We want you to succeed here, but we've got to talk about stuff. And you can appreciate this even if you have to imagine it. And our world, when we confront somebody and their job is at stake, not only is their job at stake, oftentimes where they attend church is at stake.
Charles Duhigg (40:46):
Oh, yeah.
Andy Stanley (40:46):
It is very difficult to let somebody go on Friday, and the average person then shows up at church on Sunday to get some comfort, and all of a sudden they're facing the weekend and they have to decide, can I go back to the very place? Even though the church service is different than maybe their job during the week, it is very complicated for someone to lose a job at their church. It is so difficult. We definitely factor that into how we do things, our approach to things. And in many cases, people work through it and they show back up in a few weeks and, Hey, that was my job, but this is my church. For other people, it's more difficult. So it's never fun. You know that.
Charles Duhigg (41:30):
What I really appreciate that is what I hear you saying and tell me I'm getting this right, is that when you go into these conversations, you acknowledge to yourself and to the other person that there is this power deferential that you want to move beyond. The truth of the matter is exactly what you just said. You're the head of the church. You're the guy who controls controls not only my job, but controls where I feel closest to God, probably,
Andy Stanley (41:54):
And my children and my wife or my husband.
Charles Duhigg (41:57):
Exactly.
Andy Stanley (41:58):
It's a whole family dynamic.
Charles Duhigg (42:00):
And I think when you acknowledge that and say, look, I understand that we're not talking from the same place here. I want us to bring us onto the same plane as much as I can. So I'm going to say to you, look, help me understand how you see the world. You are the expert on this. You're the expert on yourself. I am not. You are the one with the power to explain to me how you see the world. And the reason why I think this is so powerful is I think about this all the time with my kids. Your kids are older than mine, as I mentioned. Mine are teenagers. And I think a lot about how do we make this transition from being their parent to being their friend? And I don't want to be their best friend. I want them to, but I do want to have a relationship with both my boys as we get older where we are more on an equal plane,
(42:49):
I think that that's just really healthy. That's something that I want for myself selfishly. And I think that part of that is that you have to acknowledge, you can't just will it into being by pretending that the problem doesn't exist. You have to say, look, you are the expert on yourself. I'm not. So help me learn.
Andy Stanley (43:06):
And the earlier you can do that and create that space, the better. And I know we're not talking about parenting, but here's just one paradigm, period. I'll take it all. Yeah, no, I understand. This is something I found parents have a hard time remembering. You have a relationship with your, you have two sons, right? Is that right?
Charles Duhigg (43:28):
Yep. Two sons.
Andy Stanley (43:30):
You have a relationship with your sons. It is not the same relationship. And they are very aware of that. And as dads, we become less and less aware of it. It's two completely different relationships. They have a relationship with somebody who's holding all the cards. You have a relationship with someone of whose cards you're holding. And of course, the goal is to one day to have a healthy adult relationship with your sons. And what I tell parents all the time is, look, especially during middle school and high school, you have to stay in the parent seat. Don't let your teenagers bait you out of the parent seat. Because when you get out of the parent seat, things get confusing. And the best preparation for that healthy adult relationship is to remember we have a relationship. It's not the same relationship, but one day there's going to be far more equity. And now we're in that season. Our kids are 30 years old, 32, 33 years old. But I had to remind myself of that so often because the goal is exactly what you just said. I want to have a healthy adult relationship with my kids someday. So
Charles Duhigg (44:39):
Yeah,
Andy Stanley (44:40):
Good luck. Good luck.
Charles Duhigg (44:41):
That's really helpful. Thank you. Knock on wood.
Andy Stanley (44:44):
No, no. But this conversation of psychological safety, I, and this, there are so many kids who are in homes where there's no psychological safety with their parents. Absolutely. So they hide everything. They lie. They feel like I've got to lie and hide in order to survive what's happening with my family. And that's a terrible burden to put on kids. So everything we've talked about, I think translates to what's happening in marriage and with our kids.
Charles Duhigg (45:11):
I absolutely agree, because the truth of the matter is, I mean, we are talking about business leadership, but the type of leader that we are at work is also the type of leader we are at home. It's the type of leader that we have with our relationship with our spouse and our community. And I think that sometimes we do a disservice to how important work is to say, oh, there's a work me and there's a non-work me. Because the truth of the matter is some of the most important things that I do are at work. And if I can take those lessons that I can bring them home, I'm becoming a better person. It's the same me no matter where I am.
Andy Stanley (45:44):
Yep. I tell parents, I say, look, your greatest contribution to the world may not be something you do. It may be someone you raise.
Charles Duhigg (45:53):
Yeah.
Andy Stanley (45:54):
Keep that in mind whenever. Okay. So unfortunately we're out of time, but I just love talking to you. I wish we lived a closer. It'd be so fun to hang out, enjoyed this conversation. So all of our listeners, I want to thank you for joining us and invite you to check out Charles's latest book, super Communicators, how to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection. We've touched on some of it, we touched on some of it last time, but there is so much there. And again, I communicate for a living, and I think this is one of the best books, maybe the best book I've ever read on communication, because what he talks about in terms of interpersonal relationships and communication, it works in public communication as well. And be sure to check out the Andy stanley.com website where you can download the leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary of our discussion, plus some questions for reflection, either for you personally or for your entire work group. And join us next week for our reverb episode. This is where Suzy and I dig a little bit deeper into this topic. And we talk about Charles without him in the room, you're not going to want to miss that. Thanks once again for joining us on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.