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Suzy Gray (00:03):
Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast Reverb, a conversation designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging deeper into this month's episode. I'm your host, Suzy Gray. Last week's conversation with Arthur Brooks on his new book, The Meaning of Your Life was such a great episode, and I highly recommend a listen. Andy and Arthur talked about meaning and why success doesn't automatically create it. Andy, remember when Arthur actually teed up the concept of the me self? That part of us it keeps score? And here's the tension. Sometimes things are going well, but it does not feel the way you thought it would. In fact, winning stops feeling like winning. Andy, I bet a lot of leaders have felt that at one point or another in their leadership journey.
Andy Stanley (00:45):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think part of it is when we anticipate winning, we anticipate the emotions or the feelings that come along with it. And that's why this book is so important. Because what we want to feel is we want to feel like we're doing something meaningful. And the whole idea of simply being recognized for things we've done, I mean, there's a momentary sense of we did it, we crossed the finish line, you've been successful. But that's a moment in time. It's the awards banquet. You hit the number. It's the boss congratulates you. I mean, there's a moment and we strive to have those moments. But after that moment, we think that somehow there's going to be a feeling associated with crossing the finish line that goes with us. And it doesn't.
Suzy Gray (01:31):
Doesn't.
Andy Stanley (01:32):
It just doesn't.
Suzy Gray (01:34):
Yeah
Andy Stanley (01:34):
It's just Tuesday, right? It's just I'm driving home again. And that sort of sinking feeling, not depression, but that sinking feeling, and I don't want to just repeat a cliche, but there is a feeling, we don't say it, but there is a feeling of isn't there more? Isn't there more to life? And again, I don't want to be too dramatic, but there's a dip. And so of course, the high capacity leaders or the type A personalities are like, "Okay, find the next challenge, find the next challenge." Because when I'm immersed in the challenge, when I'm immersed in the adrenaline rush of got to do this, got to get this done, that's a comfortable ... I mean, I'm comfortable there.
Suzy Gray (02:12):
Yeah, you're on the hunt for the thing ,yeah.
Andy Stanley (02:14):
I'm on the hunt.
Suzy Gray (02:14):
Yeah.
Andy Stanley (02:14):
And then you cross the finish line again. There's some sort of celebration and then there's- The letdown. Where's the thing? Well,
(02:23):
This is why this is such an important discussion. The thing is finding meaning in life and crossing the finish lines, hitting the goals, hitting the marks, whatever it might be and whatever our world is. And again, I'm in the nonprofit world, but we have the same chase, more numbers, more campuses, more people, more books, whatever it is. None of that, none of that necessarily provides meaning or a meaningful life. And what we want is an abiding sense of meaning, an abiding sense of purpose. And everybody listening knows this from experience, whether you'd put words around it or not, because at some place in your life or at some place, some experience you've had has left you with that abiding sense of meaning. And it may have had nothing to do with work or nothing to do with accomplishing a goal. And so when we stop and dissect that, or if everybody listening would think about, if I ask the question, when did your life feel the most meaningful?
(03:30):
Just a sense of a contentment, a sense of peace, that sense of whatever word you want to put around that, that lasted. In fact, that experience that right now, if you think about it long enough, you can almost feel it again, that sense of ... You know what I'm talking about Suzy? You're shaking your head, but is this making sense? It totally makes sense. You follow me? Yeah. Okay.
(03:54):
Okay. So when we stop long enough to tease that out and to think deeply about that, we recognize it has virtually nothing to do with us. It has something to do with something beyond us. And that is where meaning is found. But in the day-to-day and the, here comes another deadline, here comes another outline for me to prepare, another podcast. Again, I can be distracted from a lack of meaning, but when I'm alone, when suddenly there's space-
Suzy Gray (04:25):
It settles in.
Andy Stanley (04:26):
It settles in. And blessed is the man or the woman who has found a way to have a meaningful life, a successful life, and a productive life, and all the stuff, and you get new stuff, and all that's there too. But in the process of all that, to have found a way to find meaning and to create meaning, that is a wonderful life.
Suzy Gray (04:51):
Absolutely.
Andy Stanley (04:51):
And if we are not intentional, we will be distracted from that.
(04:56):
So that's why the discussion with Arthur was so important. And it's also why so quickly, for those of you who heard it, he went to kind of this idea of transcendence, of beauty, religion, prayer, meditation. In fact, if you listen to the podcast, you're like, "Is this a leadership podcast or were they preaching?" I felt like they were kind of preaching to us. Well, you had two Christians who answered some of these deeper questions within the context of a faith context. And I asked him, I said, "Arthur, I said, I've been a person of faith my whole life, so I've never not had that. What does a person who doesn't live with a sense of transcendence or doesn't have a sort of a bottom or a foundation upon which to build these deeper things, where do they go to find it? " And he didn't suggest anything other than something of the religious nature or God.
(05:48):
In the book, he does a little bit, but honestly, and we can talk about that, it all circles back around to there has to be something that this all sits on because success in terms of our experience of success, it rests on temporary events,
(06:05):
The sense of success.
Suzy Gray (06:07):
That is very temporary.
Andy Stanley (06:09):
It is temporary, and it's good. I mean,
(06:11):
Hey, we like it. And this goes to, and this is kind of a different topic, this is a differentiation between being successful because anything that leads to the win, you're being successful, but those aren't finish lines. It's the process. So in the process, I'm feeling successful after you cross the finish line, there's a bit of a letdown. So if there's not a sense of meaning or a meaningful life that undergirds that whole process, it's the classic story of generally a man who has everything going his way and he goes and he blows up his life over a habit or an affair and you're like, "Oh my gosh, if I had all that going for me, I would never- I would never have gotten that. I would never. We all think that. " Well, that's oftentimes a person that has distracted themselves with the process of being successful, keeps crossing finish lines, accomplishing the thing, but then there's not meaning to undergird it or to create a context that really brings about the value of those successful enterprises.
(07:15):
So this is a really big deal. And even as I'm talking about it, I think if I were listening to this, I'd be like, "Huh? You know what? Can you be a little bit more specific?" So I do want to be more specific. In the book, he suggests that meaning or meaningful life is made up of three components, coherence,
(07:31):
Purpose, and significance, and he teases those out. So it's an important discussion. I'll stop talking. I know you have some other questions, but that was kind of my takeaway. And I feel so blessed because as a Christian and as somebody who gets to spend the bulk of my working hours and years in a context that brings meaning, I feel so fortunate, but everybody has that opportunity if they're willing to think long and hard about it, and if they're willing to do a couple of things that we'll get to in just a minute.
Suzy Gray (08:04):
Yeah. I think it's interesting the way that Arthur kind of contrasts looking inward and looking outward.
Andy Stanley (08:11):
Yeah. Talk about those phrases. I thought that was good. He lifted those from another author, but they're great.
Suzy Gray (08:15):
They're great phrases because it's the idea of the meself. And the meself is the one that looks inward that is how am I doing. It's all about me. How am I keeping up and my accomplishments and how do I compare and scorecards and all of that. And while sometimes you do need to reflect on what's going on with yourself, Arthur says really that the goal is to really be in your I self. And your I self is looking outward. It's looking of, how can I serve others? How can I do things that transcends me and my world and myself and really elevates the lives of others in service of others? And he would say in service of our heavenly father. So I think that the idea of transcendence, he has a chapter that's called transcend yourself and it's true. He talks about there's ways to accomplish that and in a big way is through being others focused.
Andy Stanley (09:10):
Yeah. And that's the thing I wanted to circle back around to. He and I didn't talk too much about that, but that really is where meaning's found. So my simple way of communicating this when I talk about this or when I remind myself is this, the thing that makes anything meaningful, anywhere there's an item, a fork, an iPad, the microphone I'm speaking into, the thing that makes something meaningful is when it is a means to an end beyond itself.
(09:41):
What gives this microphone meaning? Well, it's not the steel and the foam and the plastic. It's the fact that this is accomplishing something beyond the microphone. The same with a light bulb, an iPad, the key to your car, any item we have, what makes it valuable is that it is a means to an end beyond itself. When your iPhone quits working and is forever broken, what was very meaningful becomes meaningless the moment it is no longer a means to an end beyond itself. So when we live lives that are not in any measurable, observable, emotionally satisfying way, when we're no longer a means to an end beyond ourselves, we don't have meaning. We've lost meaning. And the only way to get it back is to be intentional. So the challenge is for those of us who are successful, who are paying our bills, who have margin, who have the luxury, which can become a penalty, the luxury of not having to think about anyone but ourselves, we set ourselves up to be successful without meaning.
(10:51):
And so again-
Suzy Gray (10:52):
And then it feels hollow and we wonder why.
Andy Stanley (10:54):
It is hollow.
Suzy Gray (10:55):
Yes.
Andy Stanley (10:55):
Yeah. And so, and then I think the solution is another new thing, another new experience, a more dramatic experience, a longer experience, more adrenaline rush, whatever it might be. And again, then a person finds themself in this doom loop. And again, it's that classic story of the person who has everything but has nothing or they have everything and they've lost connection with family because family is a place where I'm a means to an end beyond myself. In some way, it reflects what sometimes mothers go through when the children all leave home. And I mean, I've had this conversation so many times with so many people. In fact, that when our kids got old enough to where they started leaving the home, Sandra and I talked about this. I said, "Hey, this moment in time is coming, and so we need to figure out how to find something where we are a means to an end beyond ourselves." And I mean, that was a conversation we had.
(11:51):
We were foster parents for 10 years, not in an effort to replace children in the home, but suddenly we're going to have a lot of discretionary time. And my temptation with discretionary time is to make it all about who? Me, right? Yeah. And I think, "Oh good, I got all this discretionary time and I get to do whatever I want. " And there's a sense of ugh.
(12:14):
Again, so-
Suzy Gray (12:15):
There's only so much of that you can do.
Andy Stanley (12:17):
Right. And if
Suzy Gray (12:17):
yeah
Andy Stanley (12:18):
I'm not in some measurable, emotionally satisfying way, a means to an end beyond myself, you begin to lose meaning and it's a bad place to be. So the catch 22 is the more you have, the more likely you are to lose meaning in life. Think about that,
Suzy Gray (12:38):
Right? And people chase that success because they think that is going to create meaning.
Andy Stanley (12:42):
Exactly.
Suzy Gray (12:43):
And that's that hollow what on earth feel.
Andy Stanley (12:46):
Exactly. And again, the other sort of classic case is the man who retires. I finally got to retire early. I retired at 50 years old and they have nothing they have to do. And it's not that they don't have anything to do, they don't have anything they have to do. And I want to talk about that.
(13:04):
When there's something I have to do, I'm a means to an end beyond myself if I have to do it. If I have to do it, it's generally because there's somebody expecting me to do something and- Depending on you. They're depending on me. Now I'm a means to ... And that's what work is to some extent. So I think it's important to have some simple terminology that when we find ourselves drifting there or we find ourselves there, we can go, "Oh, I know what's wrong with me. " What's wrong with me is my time. I'm not giving enough of my time and myself or my capacity to be a means to an end beyond myself. And the goal is not to have so much discretionary time and money that I don't have to do anything for anyone. That's how you end up with a meaningless life.
(13:50):
So anyway, this is a big discussion. It's an important discussion. And it's something I think we should talk to our kids about, even though they're thinking, "Are you kidding me? " Anyway.
Suzy Gray (13:58):
Definitely. Yeah. Well, but I think that at the end of our conversation with Arthur, you asked him what's a step that people could do immediately. And the interesting thing was his response was get silent and actually think and contemplate some of these truths and figure out what's next. I would say, what would you say to a leader? And you would say, "Hey, what's one thing that you could do now?"
Andy Stanley (14:22):
I want to comment on that because he said, "Get alone and get silent, but our inclination is to get busy."
Suzy Gray (14:30):
Always.
Andy Stanley (14:31):
Always. I need to go do something. I need to get busy. In other words, I need to distract myself, which amounts to, I need to distract myself from how I feel.
Suzy Gray (14:42):
Yeah.
Andy Stanley (14:42):
And Arthur is saying, no.
Suzy Gray (14:44):
No,
Andy Stanley (14:44):
You need to go be silent and be alone and feel what you feel so you can identify what you feel so you can address it.
(14:53):
And it is very difficult to acknowledge, oh my goodness, I have become selfish. Oh my goodness, I have become self-centered. Oh no, I don't want anyone to expect anything of me. Oh no, I don't want anybody to need anything from me. And so as we push away from all of that, we are backing ourselves into a meaningless experience and a meaningless life and it's a bad place to be. And the good news is to some extent, we have control over that. And this is why so many people, when they go into retirement, they find a place to volunteer. They find a way to, as the expression is, "I want to give back." You hear that a lot of times. "I want to give back. I want to give back." Well, when you give back, you are giving your life meaning because you have become a means to an end that is outside of you.
Suzy Gray (15:42):
Think that's why so many people, when they start serving, whether it's serving the underprivileged or serving the poor or serving in their church context, when you thank them, they're like, " No, no, no. I need to thank you. "It's because that's created meaning for them. It's not just, " Hey, I'm doing this function. I'm serving food to this person who doesn't have food. "It's, I'm becoming a means to an end and that's to serve as something that this person couldn't do without me." So I think that that's indicative of exactly what Arthur is saying in the book.
Andy Stanley (16:15):
Yep. So I want to go back. I said a minute ago, we all, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can take ourselves back to a moment in time or an event where we did something that was maybe difficult to do or felt sacrificial in the moment, but the aftermath of that was so powerful, even the memory of it can elicit emotions. That's how you know when you have found it.
Suzy Gray (16:39):
Touched on it. Yeah.
Andy Stanley (16:41):
I'm fortunate. I have been celebrated for a lot of things, but I'd have to sit here and think long and hard to tell you about one. Those aren't the memories that stick, right? And then when I remember them, they're like, Yeah, but here's one that it's hard for me to even talk about. And there's several of these. And I'm only giving this as an illustration for our podcast audience to locate these and ask themselves the question, "Why is that such a powerful memory and what can I do to create more?" But we do an event every year and our staff, we call it venture out where we take the whole staff, you've done this and you go somewhere in the city and we just serve all day. A lot of organizations do this. This isn't unique to us. And so years ago, one of our venture out days, we found out about a family, had a little girl who was going through cancer treatment and she told her parents that the one thing she wanted was a playhouse out in her backyard.
(17:39):
So we went and built it. So we went to her house and we had a company deliver a kit. This is like a thing, like a big thing. She was away with the family. So we spent the whole day, we built it, we painted it, we had to undo some things and redo some things. We had to level the ground. We're sweating, all this stuff. And they made it like a big, like the television show used to be with the big reveal.
Suzy Gray (18:03):
Oh, the big reveal.
Andy Stanley (18:04):
Where they'd have the motor home in front of the house and they-
Suzy Gray (18:06):
Move that bus.
Andy Stanley (18:08):
Move the bus. Exactly. So we're out there all day and the family comes home and it's in the backyard, so we didn't have to move a bus or anything. And even telling the story, I mean, what do I have to show for that? I have nothing to show for that, but that memory is so powerful that if I don't talk about it quickly and I'll be emotional again. Everybody has some of those. And again, discovering or rediscovering those things from our past and asking the question, what happened and how do I do more of that? Well, that was a day when I gained nothing and I gained everything.
(18:52):
Because 100% of my time and our team's time, we were a means to an end beyond ourselves. So this is so important for busy people and busy executives that we find that, we don't lose sight of that. And then as we move into a season of life where we have more discretionary time, we look for opportunities to commit to those things, even though there's something in us that says," I don't need any more commitments. I need more downtime. "And of course, there's the need for balance and a sustainable pace and all of that, but without something in our lives where we are a means to an end that is not us, we lose our sense of meaning.
Suzy Gray (19:32):
That's so good. And so your charge to leaders would be, would it be ask who needs you? Who is somebody that is not somebody at work that you're getting paid to do something for? But who in your life needs you, is relying on you, is that you can actually serve and help so that you can create memories that you look back on.
Andy Stanley (19:54):
Well, as an executive or as a leader in organization, wherever you are in the organization, you have influence and you have more influence than some people, you have more resources than some people. And to whatever degree I can leverage my resources and my influence to be a means to an end that's not me, even within an organization, even within the course of a day, that gives me a sense of meaning. So yeah, I think these opportunities are around us all the time. We just don't want to lose sight of them and we need to log away those special memories to remind us that each of us have an opportunity to create meaning for our lives. And if we don't, we will drift in the opposite direction. So it's a super important topic for all of us. Suzy, I guess in some ways, and I don't know if this is a great illustration, it's the difference between eating a big meal and then cramming in dessert versus serving someone a meal and giving up a meal in order to do so.
(20:52):
Think about the contrast of feelings associated with that.
Suzy Gray (20:56):
At the end.
Andy Stanley (20:57):
At the end. I can eat whatever I want and I can eat as much of it as I want and I'm going to feel one way, but I will never, ever reflect back on that moment and think about the time that I ate that hot. I ate that
Suzy Gray (21:10):
I ate that whole meal. I got that piece of pie in too.
Andy Stanley (21:12):
I did it by myself versus I gave something up on behalf of someone else. Those are kind of the contrasting emotions and we have opportunities to create those, maybe not every day, but more often than we think. And that's what gives our life meaning.
Suzy Gray (21:28):
It definitely does. And Andy, that's all the time we have for today. Thanks as always for digging deeper. And to our listeners, thanks for listening to Reverb. If you found this helpful, please share it with another leader. And as always, subscribe wherever you listen and visit andystanley.com/podcast for more resources to help you go even further, faster.