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Suzy Gray (00:02):
Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast reverb, A conversation designed to help leaders go even further faster by digging deeper into this month's episode. I'm your host, Suzy Gray. And last week Andy and I talked about gratitude, and it was such a practical reminder that gratitude isn't just good manners, it's good leadership. The big takeaway was simple but powerful. It was unexpressed gratitude is perceived as ingratitude. So today we want to go a layer deeper. So Andy, to get us started today, I've heard you say before that gratitude and accountability aren't opposites. They're actually partners. How leaders hold that tension well?
Andy Stanley (00:43):
This is a really important relationship. And again, like so many things, when you hear it, you think, oh yeah, but in the middle of the chaos of just organizational life, we miss it. And here's the relationship. Gratitude is a deposit poit. Accountability always feels like a withdrawal. Again, there's no neutral right in organizational life, and either I'm doing a good job or I'm not doing a good job. And the reason it's important to keep that relationship in mind is this. If I have created or we've created a culture where we are quick to acknowledge what people have done right, to celebrate them publicly or to celebrate them privately or both, then when I have to have a difficult conversation, I've made a lot of deposits and we know just human nature. If for every withdrawal I need to have made at least five to 10 to 20 deposits. Family dynamic is one thing. Work dynamic is a little bit, well, a lot different. And again, because of organizational life and because we're so busy, we miss opportunities to make those deposits, but we don't miss the opportunities to make the withdrawals because we have to. I mean, when things aren't going well, you have to have a conversation. When somebody is gone off the rails, you have to have the conversation. So here's the challenge. No one is forcing us. In fact, there's virtually no pressure to make deposits.
(02:05):
And again, this is why it's tempting for leaders to hide behind the every other week payroll deposit. That's the deposit, okay? You should get all your warm fuzzy feelings from the fact that you got paid well, that deposit does nothing, does nothing to counterbalance the withdrawal of a difficult conversation with somebody. So again, this is relational.
(02:27):
This isn't financial, it's relational. So in a culture where we create the habit of, we create habits around, as we talked about last time, of expressing gratitude. First of all, we do owe people gratitude. At the same time, we're creating an environment where the withdrawals are different because a person walks in knowing, Hey, they've been quick to recognize my good work. They've been quick to celebrate my hard work. Oh, now we're having a difficult conversation. And a difficult conversation is difficult regardless, okay? It doesn't make it happy. But if we're only having conversations when I do something wrong and I don't hear from you when I'm doing things right, again, paycheck just doesn't cover that because it's relational. Relational equity is so important, and gratitude and recognition within the workplace, that's pretty much the currency of that kind of equity or relational equity.
Suzy Gray (03:22):
I do think this is such an important point because if you believe somebody is for you and they've demonstrated publicly they're for you because they have praised your work and they care about you personally, and they are supportive of you publicly or just in the moment when something is done right, then that does give you that equity to go to them when the things need to be discussed and them not think well, they just don't like me.
Andy Stanley (03:48):
Yep
Suzy Gray (03:48):
They're not for me.
Andy Stanley (03:49):
I haven't heard anything.
Suzy Gray (03:50):
I haven't heard anything. And here comes again.
Andy Stanley (03:52):
Yeah, public loyalty, if we can use the word loyalty, really sets the stage for private influence. I'm going to have more influence with you privately if you know I've celebrated you publicly. But if it's just one and not the other, or if it's just the negative, not the positive, it's just more difficult. And it's unnecessary.
Suzy Gray (04:08):
And it digs deeper.
Andy Stanley (04:10):
Oh,
Suzy Gray (04:10):
It lands so much harder.
Andy Stanley (04:12):
And I've been on that side where somebody's confronting me about something years ago, and I'm thinking, wait a minute, we're talking about this little slice of what I did wrong. And I don't hear from you about the 95% that I do. So if the only time we're going to talk about my work or the quality of my work is when I do something wrong. I mean, that's not a good environment. And that's why one-on-ones are important and they're easy to skip because who has time? If there's not a problem, why are we even talking? So those opportunities to make investments relationally to recognize, again, privately or publicly, it sets the stage for the inevitable difficult conversations down the road. So it really is an investment and it's an investment in the culture of the organization.
Suzy Gray (04:56):
Yeah, they're definitely partners. Well, gratitude feels easy as well when things are going well in the organization, right?
Andy Stanley (05:04):
Yes, yep.
Suzy Gray (05:04):
But what do you do in seasons where there's a loss in the organization? Things are frustrating in the organization. How can leaders keep gratitude alive when they're under pressure or disappointed with the results?
Andy Stanley (05:16):
Well, gratitude is more important than because when I feel like I'm winning, I'm in less need of your recognition that I'm winning. I feel it, right? I mean, other people, recognize it
Suzy Gray (05:27):
Circumstances tell you you're winning,
Andy Stanley (05:28):
Yeah, circumstances. But when circumstances tell me the opposite or things really aren't going well, then there's a deficit. And recognition and gratitude are even more important. And every organizational leader knows this. When your organization is plateaued or things are going in the wrong direction, it impacts morale, it impacts people's attitudes. And in most cases, nobody's doing anything wrong. I mean, you've got the same people. They're working just as hard, it's just not working for whatever reason, the economy or whatever. So it's not ever anybody's fault. So it's tempting because we kind of get down with the rest of the organization. That is when we really need to, not in some sort of exaggerated way. That's when we need to turn up the gratitude because people are actually, they're working harder, they're working harder with less circumstantial results. And that's when people need encouragement more than ever. And for people to stay with us during those dips or during those plateaued times, they need more from us, not less. And again, their paycheck doesn't change generally, but again, the paycheck just doesn't fill that emotional gap. Like the words of recognition, Hey, thanks for working just as hard, even though things aren't going as well as they used to go, whatever it might be. So gratitude's important all the time, but it may be more important during those down times
Suzy Gray (06:50):
Downtime. And I can totally see that. So Andy, let's talk a minute as we wrap up about the thankless jobs. I think about, my husband actually works for the organization, and he is over the network infrastructure, and he, his team are responsible to make sure that campuses are connected and the wifi is up and all the things,
Andy Stanley (07:09):
And nobody knows what they're doing.
Suzy Gray (07:12):
And when he's doing a great job, everyone's like, oh, good, the network's working
Andy Stanley (07:16):
Because we expect it to.
Suzy Gray (07:18):
But when things are down, then it's like, Ah. So what about jobs like that? What did do
Andy Stanley (07:23):
Well, okay, and this is a good reminder for me because outside my office, I walk through a set of cubes where there's copy editing, okay?
Suzy Gray (07:34):
We love them.
Andy Stanley (07:34):
We expect things to be copy edited, right? So that when they're doing a great job that just feels like normal,
Suzy Gray (07:41):
Normal
Andy Stanley (07:44):
Right? Or over on the other side is a group that does our accounting and we just very important and we expect that to go. And if it doesn't go right, we're going to have a conversation that's a big wrong. And then in my world, on a Sunday morning, I get up and I expect the sound to be correct and the battery in my pact to be charged and things to be turned on. And so nobody, when things are as they are supposed to be, no one notices those people. They don't even consider the fact that there's a job being done.
Suzy Gray (08:18):
There's a job there, there's it just is.
Andy Stanley (08:19):
It just is.
Suzy Gray (08:20):
It just is.
Andy Stanley (08:21):
So the just is things are the thankless jobs because they only get attention when something goes wrong, as opposed to a singer who's above average, just like, wow, we were expecting it to be good, but it was incredible. Well, when Jason does his most incredible work, is it noticeable?
Suzy Gray (08:40):
No. No, it's invisible.
Andy Stanley (08:42):
He's killing it. I mean, it was about to go down and at the last minute, he saved the day and nobody notices it. So I think for all of us, in every organization, there are a dozen or dozens, dozens of folks who are doing those. We're only going to notice it if it goes bad. And it is incumbent upon us to figure out a way not to just walk by and say, thanks for what you do. That's easy. But again, as we talked about last time, to figure out how to be specific, which means we need to understand what they do. And I think part of that, I know for me, when I'm expressing gratitude at that level, I express the fact that I wouldn't have the first clue about how to do what you do. So thank you for your expertise in this, not just thanks for doing a good job, but it's got to be specific. And part of the specificity is the fact that I could not do it.
Suzy Gray (09:33):
I can't.
Andy Stanley (09:34):
Do your job, and I couldn't do my job if you weren't doing your job. So anything that makes it specific and makes it public. But those are the folks who they don't get recognized unless it goes back.
Suzy Gray (09:46):
Yes. And that's not the recognition they want.
Andy Stanley (09:49):
No, they want, right? So I'll give you a quick example of this. Okay? So not this past summer, but summer before all the air conditioning units went out in our main auditorium. Remember, remember this? Remember? Yeah. All at once, well enough of 'em went out, we couldn't meet. So we had to move our whole Sunday morning services to our other auditorium, which is 30 feet away, but still, there was so much transition. Then we finally got everything fixed, and then between Sundays, they transitioned all this equipment back. So the average person shows up on Sunday. They have no idea what happened. Oh, that's fixed. Air conditioned are fake. We're back in the other room. Even the staff wouldn't know, but I knew. So I asked Angie, I said, Angie, I want you to give me the names of the crew who got us out of one room into the other in a timely fashion. Then got us back into the other room. It never even happened. It completely invisible. So she gave me the list. I went out and personally bought them nice gift cards, brought 'em into my office and said, I don't know specifically what each of you did, but what you did was amazing getting us out of one room and to the other, getting us back in a timely manner. And I'm personally grateful and just want to recognize what you did and thank you, and gave each one of them a gift card.
(11:07):
Again, if they hadn't done it and we got it back into the room and something didn't work, we would've, what's going on? What's going on? What's going on? So I think anytime we can go out of the way to express gratitude to the folks whose perfect performance means, nobody knows they're there, but it's only when things don't go well that they're recognized or somebody's calling their name out. So again, that takes intentionality, but we all have those opportunities if we just look for 'em.
Suzy Gray (11:37):
Yeah, for sure. Well, Andy, thanks for that conversation. It's such a practical reminder that gratitude isn't just good manners, it's good leadership. And thanks to all of you for listening to this episode of Reverb. If you found it helpful, be sure to leave a review or pass along to another leader. And as always, please subscribe. You listen, and check out Andy stanley.com/podcast for more resources to help you go even further, faster.