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Andy Stanley (00:03):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders like you go further, faster. If you normally consume this content on a podcast app, we will continue making that format available. But so you know, there is a YouTube version as well. So those of you joining us by way of YouTube, welcome to the conversation or welcome back because this is the second episode of a special series and thus the additional format.
Holly Goddard (00:28):
Yeah, that's right. And if you missed part one, I'm Holly Goddard. I'm the co-host of this series. And this is a special series because you have written a brand new book.
Andy Stanley (00:37):
Finally.
Holly Goddard (00:37):
Yeah, this is a long time coming. It's called What Great Leaders Do, subtitle Seven Essentials for Enduring Impact. And now I've been a part of this organization for 15 years, so I've seen these play out. They play out in the day job. I know you've named the tension and then you give us some things we can practice so that we can become great leaders and you will run into these if you try to put them into practice. In fact, I did this week. Yep. We talked about that.
Andy Stanley (01:02):
Yep. We might even share that on the podcast.
Holly Goddard (01:03):
Yeah, we'll share it a little bit later. I feel like I went to the gym and worked on my leadership muscles, and so it was a good workout. But what I love is this is dynamic, this isn't theory. You could do this stuff every day at work. And so last time you introduced us to the hardest person that we're ever going to lead.
Andy Stanley (01:22):
Yeah, the person in the mirror.
Holly Goddard (01:23):
That's right. It's us. So remind us of the first essential.
Andy Stanley (01:27):
Yeah. So we talked about there's three commitments that relate to self-leadership. And the first chapter in the book's all about self-leadership. The most difficult person to lead is the person in the mirror. So the first commitment is I will not lie to myself even when telling myself the truth makes me feel bad about myself. So I will not lie to myself even when the truth makes me feel bad about myself. And anybody who hears that goes, yep, that's what we should do. But in the day-to-day, the blocking and tackling of organizational leadership or just organizational life, once again, it is easy to lie to ourselves, Especially if we don't like how the truth makes us feel about ourselves.
Holly Goddard (02:03):
And I don't think we do it on purpose. We just -
Andy Stanley (02:04):
No. We just go there.
Holly Goddard (02:05):
self-deceived. So we're going to fire the liar. That's our first commitment to ourself. All right, here's the second commitment. I will prioritize what I value most over what I want now. And so in this commitment, you introduce us to the fact that we've all got appetites and our appetites, they never go away. They actually have two words, more and now. And so how do we view our appetites? How do we turn that into a leadership discipline?
Andy Stanley (02:31):
Yeah. So appetites, and this is obviously broader than organizational leadership, but more and now, more and now, that's what our appetites tell us. And where this intersects with leadership is that the more authority we have and the more influence we have, whether you're the director with two or three direct reports or you're over an entire part of an organization or an entire organization, the more authority and the more influence you have, it actually amplifies our appetites because the more authority and the more position you have, the more influence you have, the more opportunities you have, and the more options you have. And with options and opportunities, this is why leaders get in trouble, right? With more pptions and more opportunities, our appetites have more opportunities to get us in trouble. And I want to come back to this at the end because this is such a big deal in just a small part of this part of the discussion. Paying attention and differentiating between what I want now and what I want more of versus what I value most. Just having that language for me through the years has been so helpful because I can stop and ask myself, okay, Andy, is this an appetite you're chasing or is this something you truly value?
(03:40):
And when I am willing to hold myself accountable just to the language, and sometimes we just need language to kind of bring us back to center. It's a wake-up call because the moment we find ourselves in any arena of life chasing an appetite, we're chasing something that can never be fully and finally satisfied. And here's, and I know I'm kind of jumping a little bit ahead, but this is so important to me. When a leader knows what they value most, values are sustainable throughout a lifetime. I mean, when you hone in on, this is what I value most, values are sustainable throughout the lifetime. Appetites are not because they come in the go, they come and they go. Values we can trust to lead us. But let's just be honest, our appetites oftentimes mislead us. And again, it's why leaders who have more options and more opportunities get into more trouble because it's easy to start chasing, fulfilling that temporary appetite.
(04:34):
So this is a big deal. It's a big deal again in every arena of life. When I was preparing for this conversation, I was reminded of Patrick Lencioni's very first book, 1998. He wrote The Five Temptations of a CEO. So that was my introduction to Patrick Lencioni. Probably for some of our listeners, they have read or remember that book. In The Five Temptations of a CEO, the very first temptation for the CEO, he says, is status over results. Status over results. And the reason I bring that up is when we start talking about appetites or temptation, there's a tendency for us to think, oh yeah, that's in my personal life. But the point he makes and the point we're making in this part of the discussion is it's not just our personal life because we bring our personal lives into the marketplace and to our jobs.
(05:18):
So there's going to be a constant tension, I think, for leaders. And the more responsibility they have, the greater the temptation. There's going to be a temptation to opt for status, which is ego, which is appetite over what I value most, which is always going to benefit the organization. The minute I as a leader begin saying yes to ego and listening to ego, I'm automatically diminishing my leadership ability. And ultimately it's going to hurt whatever it is I'm leading, which ultimately is the organization. So this isn't just a nice to have, be a nice person. This ultimately impacts the bottom line. So again, if we can learn to pay attention to more and now, more and now and realize, okay, I'm chasing something that can't be fully and finally satisfied, and ultimately it's going to undermine what I've committed myself to doing in the organization. That is a big, big deal and it's a big important differentiator.
Holly Goddard (06:13):
Gosh, that is such a big thought because appetites, I never think about that at work. I mean, you know what it's like at home, you've had a hard day. Let me dive into the chips and queso. You know how appetites work. And to think, okay, we do that at work and it's driven by ego. That's an important thing to name and notice.
Andy Stanley (06:30):
But again, it goes back to the most difficult person to lead is the person in the mirror. And I'm going to make a commitment, tell myself the truth. Andy, that's ego talking. That's ego talking. We're going to talk about that in another chapter of the book as well. And to acknowledge, okay, what do I value most? And here I am in this tug of war. And I'm tempted to say that it never goes away, but I can only speak to age 68 up until age 68. It doesn't go away.
Holly Goddard (06:55):
Not yet, huh?
Andy Stanley (06:56):
No. And as much as I believe this and am committed to this, I catch myself, whether it's in a conversation, a decision, a meeting, and it's like, wait, wait, wait. Okay. It's more and now, more and now is not the way to go. I don't want the people that I'm working with to operate in that fashion.
Holly Goddard (07:13):
Yeah no.
Andy Stanley (07:14):
So I've got to lead the way.
Holly Goddard (07:14):
I can't either. Yeah. So the tension is this appetite's never going to go away. We all got them. So let's just be aware of it and name it.
Andy Stanley (07:21):
And not allow them to lead us because they often mislead us. Whereas our values should be our guide. And that's the point of this second commitment.
Holly Goddard (07:31):
So we're always going to be in tug of war with these two things. It's just a tension that we have to learn to master. And so what are some questions that we need to ask ourselves so we can answer these honestly and deal with our appetite?
Andy Stanley (07:42):
Yeah. And I think these two questions, again, this is just from personal experience. There may be a better way to approach this. And to our podcast listeners, again, you can create your own language. The point is being aware of the tension and identifying it when it happens. So here are my retreat two questions. It's what do I want? What do I really want? In this moment where there's tension, there's selfishness, there's, okay, what do I want, but what do I really want? And the what do I really want question surfaces this reality that we're all aware of but lose sight of. That behind everything I initially want, which is appetite driven, there's something behind that that I really want. And when you think about an item or something that I want that thing, that purse, that car, that whatever. Okay. But what do you really want?
(08:31):
Because that represents something. And the leader who is intuitive enough and in tune with themselves enough to be able to pause and say, I find myself being driven for that, whether it's a decision or an actual thing and to say, okay, but what's behind that? What do I really want? That then is a breadcrumb that leads me to what I value most. And great leaders operate out of pursuing what they value most rather than what they want now. But it's a bit of a mental exercise. And so the question of what do I want? Why am I so frustrated in this meeting? Why do I want to interrupt? Okay. Andy, Andy, Andy. Okay. What do you want? Well, I want. No, no, no, no. What do you want? What's behind that? And again, that little mental exercise brings us back to values and quiets our appetite, which is I want now and I want more.
(09:23):
I want now and I want
Holly Goddard (09:24):
More. Gosh, that is so good.
Andy Stanley (09:25):
That's kind of a head game.
Holly Goddard (09:27):
Yeah, but we got to learn to play it with ourselves.
Andy Stanley (09:29):
And it is happening all the time. I wrote in my notes that lurking, and this is from the book, lurking in the shadows of what we think we want is what we value. That lurking in the shadows of what we think we want is what we actually value. But pausing to ask the question, why am I so insistent on, again, a decision, a change in the budget or an item? Okay, what's behind that? And again, that gives us an end run to our values. And when we're values-driven, we're just better people and we're definitely better leaders.
Holly Goddard (10:04):
So we get a little dysregulated. We ask ourselves the question so we can figure out what is underneath.
Andy Stanley (10:09):
Yeah. What's going on? Before I start talking to you, I need to figure out what's going on with me.
Holly Goddard (10:13):
Well, and it's hard to learn how to do this in real time, but you give us a practical exercise so that we can begin to practice this. And I kind of played along in my book as I was reading. I took some notes. It was a little bit harder than I thought it was going to be because it takes a minute to get under the surface. But here's what I started thinking. If you don't know what you really want, you can't even name what you value, and then you can't even really lead yourself. So you started all this because you did a version of this long time ago, and the answers that you came up with, they've stuck with you for a long time.
Andy Stanley (10:45):
For 35, 36, 38 years.
Holly Goddard (10:50):
Yeah. Why do you think they've had such staying power?
Andy Stanley (10:52):
Well, I think it was the exercise. And I've talked about this on the podcast before, but I love repeating this and probably because it was so foundational to me. But I just think every leader or every want to be leader, every human being needs to go through some sort of similar exercise. So I was either 30 or 31, and Stephen Covey's book, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People had just come out. And it's so funny, Holly. And when that book came out, my mentor and I would meet down at a diner down in Buckhead, which is the business district in Atlanta. And I would walk in this little diner to meet him, and every other table, this book is sitting there.
Holly Goddard (11:32):
No way.
Andy Stanley (11:33):
And my mentor was some years older and he's like, "Andy, have you read this?" I'm like, "Oh my gosh. Yes, it's the greatest book."
(11:40):
And I remember him saying, he said, "People treat it like it's the Bible." I'm like, "Well, when it comes to leadership, it's kind of the Bible, at least for this generation." So anyway, in that book, Stephen Covey recommends that he's talking about these seven habits. And one of the habits is, I think it's habit number two, is begin with the end in mind. Begin with the end in mind. And as part of that habit, begin with the end in mind, he talks about doing an exercise, a though exercise where you imagine yourself at your own funeral and you're listening to people who are important to you talk about you. And he says, "Put the book down and write out what you would want to hear each of these categories of people say." So like most readers, the goal isn't to do any exercises. I want to finish reading the book.
(12:27):
So I said, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever." And he suggested, "If you're married, what do you want? What would you want your spouse to say? What would you want a son to say or a daughter, a best friend, a coach, a coworker, a boss? What would you want each of these categories of people to say?" So I read through that and thought, "Yeah, that's a good idea." But then this sentence, this stopped me in my tracks. In fact, after I read what I'm about to read, I closed the book and did the exercise. And the results of that exercise have chased me around and guided me for 30-something years. Literally, here's what he wrote. He said, "If you carefully consider what you wanted to be said of you at the end," people are doing eulogies. "If you carefully consider what you wanted to be said of you, you will find your definition of success."
Holly Goddard (13:16):
Okay, that's big.
Andy Stanley (13:17):
Or your personal definition of success. And when I read that, I thought that's exactly right. And this is beginning with the end of mine. If I identify what I want said about me in the end by the people I love and respect the most, then that is success. So I closed the book and started writing. I spent two or three mornings just thinking through and literally writing out sentence after sentence. Then realized, okay, this is a big deal. I need to narrow this down. So I took it from paragraph to some statements and ultimately I ended up with nine or 12 adjectives and condensed it to seven, committed those to memory. I could rattle them off today. I'm not going to because everybody needs -
Holly Goddard (14:02):
To do their own.
Andy Stanley (14:03):
To do their own thing. But that exercise, again, helped me identify what I really value most. And of course, no surprise, when I though about what I wanted said of me in the end, again, I was 31. I think I was 31. Had nothing to do with what I owned, how much money I made, what I wore. I mean, all the appetite, appetite, appetite, right? All the appetite stuff. And have I ventured outside of that sort of perimeter? Of course I have. But here's the difference, and we need to move on. I know. The difference is this. If you think about these words as sort of a perimeter around my behavior or my reactions, and reactions is a big one.
Holly Goddard (14:45):
Yeah, that's a big one.
Andy Stanley (14:46):
Actions and reactions. When I violate one of those, for me, from that day forward, it wasn't just, oh, I wasn't careful. That was a mistake. That's what everybody says, I made a mistake. No, that was failure.
Holly Goddard (15:01):
Okay, that's a big deal.
Andy Stanley (15:02):
Yeah.
Holly Goddard (15:03):
So there's a couple things you did. Well, first, you did the exercise. Most people breeze through it.
Andy Stanley (15:07):
And I was about to, until that statement. You have an opportunity, Andy, to discover your personal definition of what success is. It's like, okay, that seems important.
Holly Goddard (15:16):
That's worth my time. Well, you also, what you did is you created some definitions around what you meant around the words, which created a ton of clarity. And then you say when you step outside of it, that's failure.
Andy Stanley (15:27):
Failure.
Holly Goddard (15:27):
Which that's a very strong word. So why such a strong word?
Andy Stanley (15:31):
Because he's correct. What we value most is to get to the end of our lives or even the end of a season of our lives and to adhere to what we value most is success. That is success. So to venture away or to allow an appetite to mislead me rather than allow my values to guide me, that is failure. So if adhering to values is success, then walking away, it's failure. And again, when you put that word on something, now you're leading yourself well. Other people are like, oh, that was a mistake. Oh, you didn't mean to do that. Okay, I'm forgiven. Okay. But for me, and it's not about beating yourself up, it's about, again, realigning and deciding. Appetites aren't going to go away, but they can't be my guide because they're never fully and finally satisfied. It's more and now, more and now, more and now.
(16:28):
And this leads us back to this other tension that I love to talk about, ultimate over immediate or immediate over ultimate appetites, immediate values, ultimate. And again, and the only person that can determine that for you or determine that for either of us is the person in the mirror. So it comes back to self-leadership.
Holly Goddard (16:49):
Well, I love you've even redefined what success is because a lot of leaders, you want to chase outcomes or you want to -
Andy Stanley (16:54):
Of course. Yeah. And those are important.
Holly Goddard (16:56):
The budget and reach and stuff like that. But you're saying no, success is who you're becoming and if you're in alignment with that, which is important because as a leader, there's always lots of eyes on you. I'm sure our people listening, it's the same. People are watching their decisions, their reactions, their actions. And this made me laugh when I read this in the book, because one thing that stood out to me is you intentionally left something off your list. You said, "I did not write. Everyone loved him and approved of everything he did."
Andy Stanley (17:24):
Yeah. So I imagine people at my funeral that no one said, "And the greatest thing, everybody approved of every decision." No. And that's when you realize, okay, this may be another discussion for another day. Everybody has values. We prioritize values. Here are eight important things, but there's something that's most important. So people liking me, that's important. But when I did this exercise, that -
Holly Goddard (17:50):
It's not in the top.
Andy Stanley (17:51):
No, it didn't even show up in the discussion. So it's not that those things aren't valuable, but there are things that are more valuable. And every single day, every single day, everybody listening, we are constantly prioritizing or reprioritizing values all the time until we discover what is really most valuable. It is easy to misprioritize. And again, as you said earlier, we don't do this on purpose. And this is so on point when it comes to leadership because the more influence we have, the more authority we have, the more power we have, the more people whose lives and livelihoods depend on us, the more important it is that we get this right because the results trickle down. They trickle down. And ultimately, for the person that's just driven by the bottom line, it will eventually affect the bottom line because the leaders that get out of sorts either with their boards or make decisions that impede the progress of a company, in more cases than not, it's personal.
(18:56):
It's not just bad judgment because they didn't get good advice and they didn't read the tea leaves correct. I mean, that happens for sure. But the leaders that really either get taken out or burn out or just walk out, it comes back to this.
Holly Goddard (19:08):
They led themselves there.
Andy Stanley (19:10):
Yeah, they allowed themselves to usually be led by a misguided appetite as opposed to a value. So anyway, long answer to that question.
Holly Goddard (19:18):
We've talked about two commitments already that are going to anchor us from the inside out. No lying.
Andy Stanley (19:23):
Yeah, I will not lie to myself. I'll tell myself the truth even when the truth hurts my feelings. Yep.
Holly Goddard (19:27):
And we're going to prioritize what we value.
Andy Stanley (19:29):
Value most over want now. Yeah.
Holly Goddard (19:31):
So we're going to work on those two things. And if we're not careful, we can kind of do both of those things by ourselves. But then you give us a third commitment that does not let us do things by ourself anymore. In fact, you say this, third commitment. I will not attempt to lead myself by myself. And then you tell a story. I'm thinking maybe this is how you first began to learn this commitment. There was a professor that graded you against your potential rather than against your peers. And you're a pretty good public speaker, but you didn't really like the outcomes.
Andy Stanley (20:01):
No. When you start writing, you learn, or at least I do, I learn when I write. I start off with this little bitty idea that seems like I'll just mention this and then it grows and grows and grows. And so when I think back over the people who have inserted themselves into my life and my decisions to head me off of the past, and again, I'll tell this story if you'd like for me too. And all of us have those people who got in the way and said, "No, no. I don't care what you think about me, but no." It's just a reminder that as committed as we are to doing the right thing and as committed as we are to coming the best we can possibly be, nobody becomes the best they can possibly be by themselves. So if I want to be a great leader and if I want to be a leader worth following, I have to invite people into the equation.
(20:49):
Early on, they insert themselves because they're teachers and they're coaches and there's parents.
Holly Goddard (20:53):
And they have that authority in their life.
Andy Stanley (20:54):
And there's neighbors. Yeah, they have the authority. But at some point along the way -
Holly Goddard (20:57):
You kind of lose that.
Andy Stanley (20:58):
If we don't invite it, it doesn't show up. And we all know from our childhood how grateful we are for the people who were there who headed us off at the past. And for some of our listeners, they wish there had been more of those people in their lives. So with that as the backdrop, now that we're adults, now that we're in charge, now that we're the leaders, we either invite it or we don't. And when we invite it, we benefit from it. And when we resist it, we pay for it. So when I was in college, I had a speech class, sort of basic class everybody took in my liberal arts education as a journalism major. And he gave me a B on a speech. And I had sat through all the other speeches and I though, "Really?" I saw a guy's grade and I thought his speech was terrible, I thought.
(21:49):
And I've never done this before. Dr. Rifkin is the professor. I still remember his name. I don't know that I could name but a couple other professors from college. But I took several classes with Dr. Rifkin and I waited for everybody to leave. And I went up to the desk and I said, "Dr. Rifkin, you gave me basically a B+ on this speech." And before I could explain why mine was better, he looked at me. I remember I'm standing, he's sitting down, he said, "You could have done better. You're winging it." And again, you just said it. He graded me against my potential, not my performance compared to the other performance. Well, here I am all these years later still talking about it. Again, it reiterates, we can't lead ourselves by ourselves. We need input. But at this season of our lives, I wrote in my notes, you have to invite it, you have to reward it, and then you have to apply it.
(22:49):
You've got to invite it. And especially the higher up you move in the organization, you've got to invite it. Then you've got to reward it. In other words, and this is where we kind of had a thing this week.
Holly Goddard (22:59):
Yeah we've ran into this one this week.
Andy Stanley (23:01):
I didn't put, you have to invite it and like it.
Holly Goddard (23:04):
Okay, good.
Andy Stanley (23:05):
Yeah, you have to invite it. And you have to reward it. And by reward it, it's like, thank you. I missed that. Even if you think it's four degrees off, if you don't reward it, especially when you're the person's supervisor. So you got to invite it, reward it, and then you got to do something with it.
Holly Goddard (23:25):
Well, that's the one I ran into this week. We talked about it and I've received some feedback and I wasn't sure if I agreed with it. I definitely probably didn't like it. But what I noticed is I was instinctively puffing up against it.
Andy Stanley (23:37):
Inside.
Holly Goddard (23:37):
Oh yes.
Andy Stanley (23:37):
Or maybe outside.
Holly Goddard (23:39):
Oh, hopefully not on the outside. I was trying to control that, but inside I was puffing.
Andy Stanley (23:44):
And just for our audience, it wasn't me.
Holly Goddard (23:46):
It was not you.
Andy Stanley (23:47):
Yeah, because I'm your boss.
Holly Goddard (23:48):
Right. I try to self-regulate a little bit more for you.
Andy Stanley (23:51):
Yeah. People are on their best behavior-
Holly Goddard (23:53):
With the boss. I
Andy Stanley (23:54):
've noticed. Yeah. Right.
Holly Goddard (23:55):
But what happened is I went home and I was reading your book, and you have this illustration about the pro athlete and the coach. And that hit me like a ton of bricks because you talk about how the coach doesn't have to be able to outperform the athlete to add value. And I realized, oh, this is what I'm puffing up against. I'm sitting here making excuses like, "Well, you couldn't do it," or something like that. Rather than being like, "Wow, that's a missed perspective that I need to grow." So it was hard. Again, these are things you can practice in your day job.
Andy Stanley (24:29):
Well, going back to the illustration you just gave, because as you know, and you're being kind, I got some of that same feedback from the same person.
Holly Goddard (24:37):
Yeah.
Andy Stanley (24:38):
There again, it's like, okay, how am I going to respond? And when you mentioned it to me, one of the things we talked about is, and this is kind of a lesson for another day maybe, but in those moments, it's not just that we need to respond in such a way that we invite it and we reward it like thank you, and apply it. We're also modeling for the people who report to us how to respond to feedback. And when we as leaders respond to feedback in the right way, the gracious way, the, oh, I'm so glad you pointed that out. I'm not sure I see it that way, but let me think about it. We're modeling for them how we want them to receive feedback. So it's not even just for us to get it right, it's what we're modeling for the people around us. But again, the more authority, the more power, the more influence, you've got to invite it. Great leaders do not lead themselves by themselves. And for those of us who answer to a board, I answer to a board, they have the authority to insert themselves into whatever decisions I'm making or whatever decisions I'm considering. But if I really want to get this right, I have to invite feedback from the people who report to me and in some cases to the people who report to them.
(25:49):
And if I invite it, chances are they will invite it and then everybody's -
Holly Goddard (25:53):
Then we all get better. No, it's so good. There's so much more to unpack in this chapter. There's this insight that you have where you talk about the inequity of people at work. It's actually a tension that I feel like I kind of just bumbled into, but you say it so clearly. You say you have a relationship with the people you lead, but it's not the same relationship. That is such a big idea. I've experienced it. I had never heard it before. And it's worth picking up the book for just to unpack that. And unfortunately we can't unpack it today because we're out of time.
Andy Stanley (26:25):
I was hoping we could get to that, but we'll just leave it there. Yeah, but it's super important. And again, it's one of those things, once you see it, you can't unsee it, and then you recognize it when it's happening. And then we just lead better. But anyway.
Holly Goddard (26:36):
Well, we spent two episodes talking about leading ourselves well. So for the leader who's driving into work right now, what's one thing they can practice this week?
Andy Stanley (26:45):
Based on this conversation?
Holly Goddard (26:46):
Yeah, based on our conversation.
Andy Stanley (26:47):
I would say, going back to where we began, to bring the language of appetites want more now, more and now, more now, and to pay attention to that internal conversation and to catch yourself going, "Oh, I think what's driving me in this conversation or in this decision or in my hesitation to even respond, whatever it might be, is more and now, more and now. That's an appetite. Okay. But what do I value? What do I really want? What do I value most?" So I would say just pay attention to that internal dialogue because again, this is about leading ourselves well. And then secondly, for the person in our podcast audience who has yet to sit down and work through something like Stephen Covey's exercise or something similar, to do that so that you discover what you actually value most. And then to condense it to something that's portable and memorable and that you can take with you perhaps for the rest of your life.
(27:39):
Let me tell you where this is really going to land or help. It's not just at work, it's life in general, but it's really going to help with your children raising your kids. Well, all three of my kids are in their 30s and married with kids. And again, establishing that baseline for me early on, it definitely impacted every relationship. Hopefully it made it easier for me to apologize because I appropriately felt worse about things that perhaps the average person wouldn't feel so bad about. Because for me, it wasn't just a mistake, it was failure. So if you haven't worked through an exercise or a similar one, I highly recommend that.
Holly Goddard (28:16):
That's so helpful. Thank you. I can't wait for our next conversation. We're going to unpack the second essential next time that great leaders play to their strengths. So I'm looking forward to that. Well, hey, thanks so much for being with us. And before you go, take a minute to subscribe wherever you access this content. By subscribing, you help us grow the audience, which allows us to keep bringing you great content to help you go further, faster. And be sure to visit andystanley.com where you can download the leadership podcast application guide. You're going to get a summary of this episode plus some questions for reflection for you or a group discussion. Well, we will see you next time right here on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.