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Andy Stanley (00:02):
Hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed to help leaders go further, faster. I'm Andy Stanley and I will be your host today. So on this episode, we will wrap up a two-part conversation, the one that we began this past month with my friend Jonathan Reckford. Jonathan, welcome back to the podcast.
Jonathan Reckford (00:20):
Thanks, Andy. Great to be with you again.
Andy Stanley (00:22):
Yeah. Well, thanks for coming back. Again, there was so much good stuff and so much good stuff in the book. As I mentioned last time, Jonathan is the CEO of Habitat for Humanity International, not just the US Habitat, but the entire shooting match. The entire organization, as he shared last time, with a one point what million number of associates?
Jonathan Reckford (00:41):
1.4 million volunteers.
Andy Stanley (00:43):
1.4 million volunteers. That's amazing. In 71, 74 countries, how many countries are y'all in?
Jonathan Reckford (00:50):
So we're in about 70 countries and then have just under 1,200 US affiliates.
Andy Stanley (00:54):
Yeah. So as you can imagine, those of you who are in any kind of leadership role, that is a huge responsibility in normal times. Imagine being the CEO of Habitat for Humanity with what else is going on in the world right now. So his responsibilities are getting bigger and more complicated all the time. And we talked a little bit about that last time. Under his leadership, Habitat has grown from serving 125,000 individuals a year. Let's think about that, which would be super successful. But since he took this role, last year alone, Habitat has served seven million people. So when it comes to leadership, I may be talking to a legend, and that became apparent last month with some of the things that Jonathan shared. Now, Jonathan, I didn't share this last time because I wanted to save it, but there's several things you've said through the years that I have written down after our lunch or after our conversation, and this was one of them.
(01:46):
One time we were chatting and I was mentioning how people are always wanting me to take a stand. I bet you remember this. They're always wanting me to speak up and take a stand. And I'll never forget this. You smiled and you said, "Well, actually, Andy, they don't want you to take a stand. They want you to take their stand." Do you remember that?
Jonathan Reckford (02:02):
I do.
Andy Stanley (02:03):
I have repeated that so many times when people say, "Take a stand." I'm like, "No, you don't want me to take a stand. You want me to take your stand, and if I'm not going to take your stand, you would rather I not take a stand." So anyway, Jonathan, again, because of his career path that we talked about last time, so much good stuff. Now, for our audience, if you did not hear part one of this conversation, I highly recommend you go back and listen to the first part because this one's going to build on that one. Jonathan recently published a book entitled Our Better Angels, and the book is created around seven virtues. And while they are important everywhere, they are critical to those of us in leadership. So Jonathan, as we jump into the second part of this conversation, would you quickly just review the first three that we talked about last time we started with kindness?
Jonathan Reckford (02:49):
Absolutely. Thanks so much, Andy. The seven are kindness, community, empowerment, joy, respect, generosity, and service. And pick these as ones that will be the most tangible virtues in terms of creating the kind of society we all want to be a part of. And we talked about last month, we talked about kindness really being love and action. How do you then translate? And I loved your image of if you took the inverse of it, who would want to work in a place that didn't have or was the opposite of these things? So kindness starts with how do we see other people and treat them. Community is really about belonging to something greater than ourselves and how do we be part of something where we are known and connected and I think especially in this COVID era, desperately needed by all of us. And then empowerment, which I think is so relevant for every organization, that's investing in others so they can acquire the skills, opportunities, and responsibility to grow into all that God intended.
(03:49):
And as Habitat talks about, it's giving somebody a hand up, not a handout that is really building their ability to go and serve others.
Andy Stanley (03:56):
And we talked about as we wrapped up that part of the conversation that so oftentimes in leadership, the more tenure we have, the more responsibility we have. Also, the more opportunity we have to empower people around us. And we just get too busy. We just get too busy with what's in front of us. But then when we stop and look back, because all of us have these stories, we think about the people that gave us our first opportunity, our first responsibility. They empowered us and now they're a permanent part of our story. So that's one that definitely intersects with corporate culture. Now, we're going to move on. And this fourth one is, I think the most interesting one, this fourth virtue that you talk about in the book, Our Better Angels, is the most interesting one as we think about how it connects with a leadership culture or with leadership in general.
(04:43):
And it's the virtue of joy. Again, not a particularly common term within leadership, culture or vernacular. So what is your definition of joy? What does that look like in a corporate context like habitat and how do we carry that with us?
Jonathan Reckford (04:59):
So this one is one we struggle the most. Some people would say, oh, joy is not a virtue. It's an emotion. I think for those of us with a faith lens, and that really came from my perspective on it, joy is living with the assurance from God that we have been given a life worth living.
(05:16):
So that despite our circumstances, our daily circumstances shouldn't actually impact it. And I think that's where it becomes a virtue, not emotion. We're going to experience all kinds of emotions. We still get to choose sort of our outlook on life. And I think we've all been around those leaders and those people who just radiate joy. And we've been around people who have great talent, they may have great knowledge, they may have great expertise, but you don't want to be around them. And I think that joy is a differentiator whether ... And often that's one of those places where the people of great influence in a culture may not be the people of positional leadership, but often they're those people that carry joy.
Andy Stanley (05:58):
So I want to talk a little bit more about this one before we move on because I think my tendency, and I don't know if other people would feel this way. My tendency is when I meet a person who is characterized by joy, I have a tendency to chalk that up to their personality.
(06:15):
But what I'm hearing you say is if it's a virtue, then it's something that all of us can embrace and all of us can to some extent manage. So tell us, and again, I didn't ask you if I could ask you this ahead of time. There are moments or seasons I know, because I know you and we've shared our lives with each other a bit. There are moments that are not joyful moments. How do you regain your joy? Because I know for me, I have an internal process. Sometimes I have to regain it because it is perspective. Joy is really the broader context, especially for those of us who have faith, but you can lose your joy, but you don't have to live without joy forever. So what would you say to the leader that says, "You know what? Yeah, I meet those people and I just think, well, they're just happier.
(07:01):
It's their personality." What would you say about now, joy is something you can gain, it's something you can lose, but it's something that you can regain.
Jonathan Reckford (07:10):
I really do believe that, and I believe you can choose it. And I know that's a complicated concept. And I think back and I quote Philippians, one of my favorite passages, but that command from somebody who was in prison to rejoice always in spite of incredibly difficult circumstances. And so I do think it's different than happiness. Happiness is an emotion and we're going to feel happy and we're going to feel unhappy. I think we can choose joy even in tough circumstances. And I think about the people who are able to do that and how incredibly powerful that is when it does happen because you see people and you think, how can that be? They have all this bad stuff and they have still chosen. And I think our responsibility as leaders is to figure out whatever it takes to be able to show up and bring joy with us every day when we go to work.
(07:59):
And so whatever I and you and each of us need to do spiritually, emotionally, physically, for me, very practically, if I don't get exercise, that's harder. And that gives me kind of my stress release and perspective regain. If I'm not getting sleep and I'm not getting time in scripture and I'm not having friendship time, all of those kind of take away from- They rob
Andy Stanley (08:21):
Your joy.
Jonathan Reckford (08:22):
... the ability to show up joyfully, even when times are hard. This is a tough time for tough time for churches. It's a tough time for habitat. It's a tough time in our society and world, but I think joy is such a hope bringing response. And I think it's why it's more critical than ever that leaders figure out how they can continue to bring joy into their workplaces. And that's not sort of just being happy and pretending bad stuff's not happening. That's not it at all. It's actually that deep confidence. I think about my favorite quote about calling or purpose comes from Frederick Biekner and he said, "Your calling or your purpose is that place where the deep gladness of your heart meets the world's great need." Wow. And I think that deep gladness of your heart, that's a beautiful picture of joy.
Andy Stanley (09:10):
So one more question on this, because of what you do, you have seen, as many of us who have traveled to difficult parts of the world or who've gone on actual mission trips or hosted people on trips like that, one of the things that Americans always come back with, I mean, 100% of the time is those people have so little, but they're so joyful. Those people are living circumstances I couldn't imagine. I didn't even want to stay there any longer and yet they had so much, and they used this word, they had so much joy. What have you learned from the poor about joy?
Jonathan Reckford (09:47):
I've learned a lot about resilience and all these virtues tend to interconnect because it also ties to community as well, but it is humbling and it's constantly humbling. And I've realized that we have to differentiate the materially poor from poor in other ways. And I think that's one of the things we can get wrong in our consumer driven culture in the United States in particular because I remember actually tell us a brief story, taking my son to Uganda and it was the first time I'd taken him on an international trip and we're building outside, just outside the capital city with our program for orphans and vulnerable groups and building with this family that by material terms had nothing. They were a family of nine living in a tent and four of them had tuberculosis. And the dad, Mr. Perry, his brother died. So they took in his four children.
(10:44):
So now they had 13 people living in this patchwork tent and then one of their boys befriended a boy named Gift who was literally out on the street and they became friends and they invited him in. And I think about how many of us, my kids weren't happy if they had to share a bathroom and we just can't even imagine. And this boy gift and my son bonded. They spent the whole week digging all the tree together and this is just a beautiful child and he was a joyful young man despite his personal circumstances, which I won't go into, but were really horrific and his sort of positive outlook and they found ways to connect around music, they found ways to connect around somebody, things that they had in common. And I do think that's humbling and puts ... It's those perspective gainers that we lose so quickly.
Andy Stanley (11:33):
Well, that's why I brought it up because I think those trips, those interactions take away my excuse not to recapture and refine my joy and to make sure I pry my joy away from my circumstances because the joy of circumstances is certainly fickle and the depth of joy among people who have circumstances we can't imagine seems to be more permanent. So anyway, I just wanted to ask you that question. Okay, moving on. Virtue number five is respect. Again, respect is important everywhere. It's certainly important as we think about what we portray as leaders and how we treat other people. How do you define respect and what does that look like at Habitat?
Jonathan Reckford (12:16):
For me, respect is basically honoring the human dignity of every person. And regardless of our differences in all the different ways that we can be different from others and treating them accordingly. And it is ... I think this one, I think social media is a disaster for respect. The sort of depersonalization is so unhelpful. And I think when you lose respect in a culture, I think it has such a devastating impact. So one of I think the jobs of a leader, even when it's really tough, is being willing to hold people accountable and be completely relentless about weeding out disrespect. And I think those times where you have to ... If you've got a leader who may be productive as can be, but disrespectful to his or her peers, subordinates, colleagues, those are the ones who will kill your culture in a heartbeat.
Andy Stanley (13:11):
Yep. And again, for some of us, because of how we were raised, I think this comes a little bit easier. For other people, it has to be learned. But again, if you flip it around, no one wants to be disrespected, which means no one wants to work in a culture characterized by disrespect. So again, it's not soft, it's not gentle. It's a prerequisite for health and certainly for a healthy culture. And both of us have had those difficult conversations with highly productive people who left a trail of chaos. And the situation I'm thinking about, nobody wanted to work for this person. They respected and admired their ability to get things done, but relationally, it was just difficult. And those are very tough, but necessary conversations. And again, it connects, goes back to community, everything else. Number six, this isn't a surprise when I think about how you spend your life.
(14:01):
The sixth virtue you talk about in our Better Angels is generosity. How do you define generosity and what does that look like at a personal level?
Jonathan Reckford (14:11):
I just heard a new definition I really liked. I think retired Duke theologian, Stanley Howarth said, generosity is the capacity to participate imaginatively in the experience or the life of others.
Andy Stanley (14:23):
Okay. Well, you're going to have to repeat that. That's pretty rich. Say that again.
Jonathan Reckford (14:28):
It's the capacity to participate imaginatively in the experience, the life of others. And I think that goes to empathy. And in a way, generosity is so tied to empathy and empathy is different than sympathy. If you're sympathetic, you can kind of distance yourself from somebody. If you're empathetic, it's inviting you into their perspective, their world. And generosity to me personally then is, as you have taught so powerfully in the Be Rich series, it's your time, it's your treasure, it's your gift. And so Habitat was built by generosity of people literally giving ... It was built by volunteers. It was built by people giving of their time, talent, and treasure, and it sustains and exists because of that. And I think as leaders, sometimes it gets focused too much just on the money piece, but so much of generosity, as we talked about before, are those people who are generous with their time, generous in mentoring.
(15:30):
One of the things I try to do is say yes to students who write to me or ask for 15 minutes or 30 minutes because when I was a student, people took me seriously and gave me time. And I think one of the challenges is we get busy is that sometimes we are not interruptable enough. And I do think we're called to at least have enough margin where when you get that twinge of the Holy Spirit or that somebody needs something that we are able to readjust and serve them.
Andy Stanley (16:02):
Yeah. For me, because of time constraints, there are a handful of people that I've just said, "I'm available whenever you need me. " But it's not very many people. I mean, it's one of those do for one, what you wish you could do for everyone. You cannot mentor everyone. You can't be available to everyone, but it's easy as a busy leader to retreat to, well, if I can't do it for everyone, I'm not going to do it for anyone, but to be selective in how we're generous with their time. I'm so glad you brought this up because for many of the people that you and I work with or serve, it is so much easier for them to write a check than to commit a week or to go work on a habitat project or to fly somewhere to see a need somewhere else in the world.
(16:47):
It's like, "No, no, no, Andy, just tell me how much you need." It's like, "No, I want you to see this. I want you to feel this. I want you to leave a piece of your heart out there." But again, that requires time and the people who learn to be generous with their time, not just their wealth, are generally better stewards of their wealth and how they're generous with their wealth. So that's just something for all of us to think about.
Jonathan Reckford (17:09):
And I think it's so important. I remember hearing a really smart guy, I won't shame him by name, but much smarter than I am. And he was giving a talk. And essentially what he said, to paraphrase him is, "It would be ridiculous for me, this brilliant high strategy leader, to go out and work on a habitat house or serve in a soup kitchen because I should be advising kings and presidents on how to run their countries." Oh, wow. And I thought-
Andy Stanley (17:35):
He said that out loud.
Jonathan Reckford (17:37):
He said it out loud in front of a large audience.
Andy Stanley (17:39):
That's what you think, but don't say out loud.
Jonathan Reckford (17:42):
And the arrogance, because there's truth, of course, in that, which is if he spent all his time in a soup kitchen that would not optimize his giftedness, but the arrogance to believe he could solve problems for people he had no relationship with is what is so profoundly wrong about that and the need for us to have the human connection. And so God bless people who write checks. Those allow us to do our work, but the personal connection is still fundamentally important.
Andy Stanley (18:12):
Yep. One thing we both learned too in some ways the hard way that rich people aren't necessarily generous. Generous people are generous.
Jonathan Reckford (18:20):
That's exactly right.
Andy Stanley (18:20):
And people with a little bit are generous, people with a lot can be generous, but the amount of money or the amount of time a person has available says nothing about their generosity, it really is a virtue and it really can be developed.
Jonathan Reckford (18:35):
We have a program at Habitat that I actually love, and it's a tithe program. And it started early on because our first country was in Zaire, now Congo, and as they had been invested in by the US, we were getting ready to start Guatemala, and out of their tiny amount of money in Zaire, they sent a tithe of their resources to help start Habitat Guatemala. And that began our tithe program where every habitat entity is supposed to tithe to help those in greater need. And it's not a huge percentage of our budget, but it is so important in a way to our culture.
Andy Stanley (19:15):
Well, it's symbolic. It's, I'm going to do what I'm doing for others, what somebody, a whole lot of people did for me to make what I'm doing possible or my survival possible. Wow, that's a great idea. Okay. Well, let's wrap this up talking about the seventh virtue. And again, not a surprise virtue when I think about what you do, but as it relates to what we all do, it's extremely important. And it ties into the conversation we just had about time. The seventh virtue is service. Service. Talk a little bit about the virtue of service.
Jonathan Reckford (19:44):
Well, we said at the beginning before that love was sort of the umbrella over all these virtues, service is sort of the foundation under them that I believe, I really believe both morally and practically that servant leadership is what we should all aspire to as leaders. I think it actually works best and is the right thing to do. It's hard to talk about service without thinking about President Carter, who is our most famous volunteer. Most people think he both started and runs Habitat, which turns out not to be true, but God bless him last fall, he turned 95 and then spent the next week, despite having had a fall with a big cut over his eye, building in Nashville, Tennessee with Mrs. Carter. And they have done this for 36 years. And it's hard for me to think about somebody who has lived his faith in such a tangible way, in a way that has had tremendous impact, not only in the direct work he has done with infectious diseases and peace building and really putting habitat on the map, but that consistency and integrity of the way he has done it,
(20:46):
Even for people who don't agree with him on things. And so I've thought a lot about, and we have tried to habitat to actually model our whole structure on servant leadership. So from the way that we hire to the way that we promote and encourage and train and development to the way that we hold people accountably are built around servant leadership framework and capabilities and our metrics and measures try to support those in the same way. And it's also deeply embedded in the way that we try to serve in our communities. And I think it ties to humility. It's not about me, it's ultimately, it's about the mission, but service is something I'm very passionate about.
Andy Stanley (21:24):
And you talked about last time on the first episode of this conversation, part one, that you actually give employees an opportunity, an incentive actually to go serve beyond just what they do for their company directly to do trips. Again, what's rewarded is repeated and you've actually rewarded their service within the organization and out in the field. So anytime I think in a corporate environment, we can reward service. Again, what's rewarded is repeated. For some people, it's a natural bent. For others, it's something that has to be learned. So I think anything we can do corporately, we benefit from, even though that's not the goal, we do a similar thing in terms of encouraging people to lead mission trips. Our staff, we say, "Hey, this isn't a vacation." Even though you don't work in our global X division, if you'll lead a trip, then that week is yours.
(22:14):
Go serve and we'll support you in that. So I think there are ways corporately for organizations to do that. And as you know, more and more organizations are finding ways to do that because again, it's a little bit of pay it forward and it's just good for corporate culture.
Jonathan Reckford (22:27):
I think it's fundamental to both sides of that. I mean, so it's so interesting. My first habitat experience when I was working with the Walt Disney Company and Disney used to spend a fortune on what I would call artificial team building. We do all these sort of contrived experiences. I took my team out and we spent a day putting siding on a house alongside a family in Orlando, Florida and team 92, this goes back a ways. It was such a powerful team experience that it changed the dynamics.
Andy Stanley (22:56):
Better than a trust fall or a ropes course?
Jonathan Reckford (22:58):
It was, in fact, because it mattered and it forced you to do things you weren't used to doing and operate. And of course, very importantly, the most senior people are rarely the best construction workers, as it turns out. So it kind of changes the dynamics, but it did bond. And out of that, a few of us just kept on doing it because it was such a great experience. I had no idea that would lead to my full-time calling many years later, but I do think more and more tied to our conversation about people looking for meaning in their company, the best talent want to work for companies that are having impact in their community and are creating this sort of bigger view of impact beyond just return on shareholder investment.
Andy Stanley (23:41):
And they stay longer. They stay
Jonathan Reckford (23:43):
Longer. And you hold onto them.
Andy Stanley (23:44):
Yep, yep. And I've learned they have a higher tolerance for corporate pain within the culture. I mean, we'll hit bumps and things aren't great and people don't really love what's happened, but if there's buy-in to the mission and vision of our organization, especially as it relates to who we're serving, it's sort of like, "Hey, it's worth it. Okay. It's not ideal. It didn't go my way this time, but the picture here is so big and I'm so committed to the bigger picture, I'm going to stay in spite of not getting a promotion, not getting my way." So again, there's so much to it. So real quick, give us the overview of the seven virtues, and then I'm just going to ask you as a final question, if you could just give our leaders one piece of advice or one takeaway related to this or related to anything else.
(24:29):
Again, you are a wealth of information, a wealth of experience. I just discovered that you work for Walt Disney in Orlando. I didn't even know that was part of your resume in addition to coaching in the Olympics and being on Wall Street. It just goes on and on. But as you think about these seven, is there a big takeaway as there's kind of a final statement?
Jonathan Reckford (24:47):
So my hope as we've talked about these virtues is that they will resonate with people in such a way that they want to go put them into practice. And my hope in writing this book, this is a storybook, not a headbook. This is a hard book. And I think we need both, right? But what I've learned, and you're such a master of Andy, is that ultimately transformation comes from story, not from being convinced of a better idea. You need both. We need data, but hearts are changed by story. And I think our society is desperate right now for people to lead with these virtues at a time where there's a lot of anxiety. We have a lot of polarization, a lot of fear. If I can just tell one story of generosity that just is probably my favorite story from the book and just sort of put a book in.
(25:33):
My friend Boris Henderson is just a great human being. And Boris, which I think is so relevant in the conversation our country's having right now, grew up in a really tough part of Charlotte, North Carolina. And Charlotte, unfortunately with Atlanta, our hometown is one of the cities with the least opportunity for social mobility in the United States.
(25:54):
And Boris grew up in a community called the hole. And you can imagine how great that was. And there were shootings, violence, they had no indoor plumbing, conditions that you don't think should exist in this country. And Boris wasn't doing well. He was failing first grade. He was acting out and people invested in him and saw a promise in him. And he said it really changed in third grade. Things changed dramatically. His mom qualified to buy a habitat house and they moved from the hole to Optimist Park. And I just love the imagery of that. So he moved to Optimist Park. He has mentors, other nonprofits get engaged. He turns out to be a really smart kid. Now he's got a stable place to do homework. He's got anchors in. He ends up winning a full scholarship to Davidson College, gets an MBA, goes into banking, and then went into affordable housing and now is serving at need seniors and leading in a senior care community.
(26:49):
And he's the first person that I'm aware of that grew up in a habitat house that serves on Habitat's international board of directors.
Andy Stanley (26:54):
Oh my goodness.
Jonathan Reckford (26:55):
Wow. And of course, he's one of those people you're around him. We talked about joy. He is a joy carrier. And I share that because think of all the borises in our country and world that have so much potential if they could just have a chance.
(27:12):
And as I think my hope is people hear the stories and think about these virtues, that there'll be a spur to action so that it translates into finding for each of us that way that we're called to go and make a difference and so that more people have that opportunity. And I think we're at a critical time in our country and world where what we all do is so desperately needed. We have so much uncertainty with COVID and such a desperate need on top of what ... We had a big need before that, but my hope is that even for people who could never agree politically, agree religiously, that they could agree on some of these common values in such ways that we can find ways to work together.
Andy Stanley (27:56):
Well, the book is Our Better Angels by Jonathan Reck for Jonathan. Thank you so much for this two-part conversation. Thanks for your friendship and your insight. Also to all of our podcast listeners, we want to thank you for joining us and invite you to visit andystanley.com, andystanley.com, where you can download the Leadership Podcast Application Guide that is a summary of this discussion along with questions for reflection. So if you get your group together, they listen to this episode, we will provide questions to keep that conversation going and give you an opportunity to bring it right down into the nuts and bolts of your particular organization. As always, thank you so much for joining us and we will see you right back here next month on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast.