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Andy Stanley (00:05):
Well, hey everybody. Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast where we help leaders go further, faster. I'm Andy. And this month and next month, my friend Patrick Lencioni is in the virtual studio with me and we are talking about something that is going to blow your mind. We're talking about working geniuses. This is a brand new assessment or evaluation tool that is taking the leadership world by storm or soon will be as soon as we finish this podcast. Pat, welcome back.
Patrick Lencioni (00:34):
It's great to be with you, Andy.
Andy Stanley (00:35):
Pat's no stranger to our podcast and he's probably no stranger to most of you. My guest is that you've read or listened to at least a couple of Pat's 11 books. I've read all 11, which by the way, this is amazing and I'm not a jealous author, have sold over six million copies and have been translated into more than 30 languages. Pat, as most of you know, is one of the founders of the table group and is a pioneer in the organizational health movement. And many of you aren't old enough to understand that the organizational health movement is a relatively new movement within the context of leadership. Because believe it or not, once upon a time, nobody really cared if the organization was healthy as long as it was profitable. And a group of wonderful people like Pat came along and said, "No, if you want it to be more profitable, you got to make it more healthy." So he has been on the front edge of that conversation through his books and his podcast and his conferences and anytime somebody can get him to come speak.
(01:29):
So we're super excited about that. Now, real quick, before we jump into working geniuses. So to your point, a few months ago we're together and I said, "Hey, Pat, this was probably March, COVID had ... People finally knew what to call it, how to spell it. We were starting to wear masks. So much has changed." And I asked you, I said, "Pat, when you're talking to leaders right now, what are you saying?" And you told us what your advice was to leaders at the front end of the pandemic. You said, "Lead with your humanity or allow your humanity to show. Dino, just be human." So here we are six, seven months later. Are you telling leaders anything different or what are you saying now? Because whatever you say, I'm going to start saying and try to take credit for it. So what's the message to leaders right now?
Patrick Lencioni (02:20):
Well, being exceedingly human is still critical, but I think that the word courage has never been more relevant to leaders. In moments like this, it's almost impossible to see the nature of that change, but courage is more necessary than it's ever been because doing things that we once considered to be simple, acceptable, and normal takes more courage than ever. So I would say we have to lean into that and understand what that means. And as a follower of Jesus, I'm just going to say this, is that the end of the beatitudes where Jesus says, "And when they persecute you because of me and utter every kind of evil against you, rejoice, because your reward will be great in heaven." I always thought, "Man, that must have been hard to live back then." I'm glad that doesn't happen anymore. And I think just loving people in truth is harder than it's ever been.
(03:12):
And that's what true whether you're a manager or a pastor or a parent or a baseball coach. And I think that courage is going to become even more important than it's ever been. And a lot of people think, "Well, I don't know if I really need to be courageous. That's just a character trait. Everyone needs courage."
Andy Stanley (03:28):
Wow. And you're talking about both personally and within corporate environment as well in terms of leading out, stepping out, doing the unusual thing, doing things differently. I mean, just managing change takes courage. And in my world or my quote industry, the church world, it's been interesting to watch that because as you know, churches are relatively very slow to change anything because we get our message and our model mixed up. And when you get the message and model mixed up, you can't change the model without people feeling like you're messing with the message. And it's been interesting to see even nonprofits and churches in particular, on one hand, be a little bit sluggish and resistant. And then others that have just taken advantage of the opportunities that come along with any kind of upset culturally or what we're going through as a nation and leading out.
(04:17):
And again, and we're sort of in this camp of you're criticized on the front end and then you are oftentimes recognized as being forward thinking on the back end. But that takes courage because to your point, there's going to be some criticism. And we can talk about this some other time, but I have and we have received criticism from within our organization, within our churches for not doing some things and for some of the things that we've done. But as a leader, when you're confident, not arrogant, but confident, this is what we need to do, you've got to have courage because the arrows are coming.
Patrick Lencioni (04:51):
Oh yeah. And the ones that come from inside are the most painful ones.
Andy Stanley (04:55):
Yes. Yes. Always.
Patrick Lencioni (04:57):
And that's one of the things I'm dealing with right now. And that's why that whole concept of the audience of one, there may be times when that's the only person, the person of Christ who's nodding at you and applauding you and that takes courage to be okay with that.
Andy Stanley (05:13):
Yep. Wow. We should talk about that sometime. That sounds like a-
Patrick Lencioni (05:17):
I woudl love to.
Andy Stanley (05:18):
Yeah, that would be a lot of fun. But let's talk about working geniuses. So your team has created this extraordinary assessment tool. I call it an assessment tool. I guess that's the right terminology. First of all, it's interesting in and of itself, but the timing of this is really interesting because in the middle of COVID with everything going on and batting down the hatches and protect the assets and keep your powder dry, all the stuff people have tried to figure out how to do in business, you stepped out to the point earlier of courage and you have created a brand new product. It's more than a product. It's an amazing tool. Why now? And again, there's so many other things you could have been doing with your time and energy. Why this tool and why now?
Patrick Lencioni (05:59):
Well, I think one of the ... I'm glad you asked that because we didn't sit down and say, "Let's come up with something new." By the grace of God, we stumbled upon this on our own by accident. And so in the middle of ... When we came back from COVID, three months of shutdown, we said, "Okay, we got to get back to work." And we were at work and I was actually Andy doing a podcast for pastors and their teams, talking about how to evangelize and how to run their parishes better and all these things. And then afterward, we got off that, we had 350 people on there. Then after that, I got the team that was doing it and I was giving them feedback and kind of managing them and rallying them and that was exhausting for me. And then after that, we shut it down and I turned to my co-founder, Amy, and I said, "I have an idea for our podcast.
(06:42):
We should do this and this. " And she said, "Why are you the way you are? Why do you do this? " And I said, "I don't know, but it's driving me crazy. Half of it I love, half of it I don't. I wish I could figure it out because I feel like I'm about to drop." And that had been kind of the culmination of more than 20 years of mild frustration in my work. And that question that Amy asked me, "Why are you this way?" Provoked a four hour discussion. And at the end of that four hours, we had these six words on a board and we weren't coming up with a model. We were just trying to explain me and the team. And we were like, "There's something to this. " And one of the guys on my team saw it and he said, "You know something?
(07:22):
This is bigger than the five dysfunctions." We thought, "What do you mean?" He goes, "This is more truth and more applicable." One of our consultants saw it on the whiteboard and wrote it down and the next morning he was with the CEO of a company who was struggling and he said, "Hey, let me share something I saw last night." And he wrote it on the whiteboard and the CEO got tears in his eyes, started to get overwhelmed and said, "This is my whole issue right here."
Andy Stanley (07:48):
Wow.
Patrick Lencioni (07:48):
And so we said, "Boy, there's something here." And we feel like we're stewards of this because we didn't try to do it. And so over the next few months we started developing this, the face validity. People were saying, "This is changing my world. I'm looking at myself differently, in particular, how I work." And so what it came to is we realized that these six different God-given skillsets and talents were the six things that are required in any organization. And if we don't know the unique geniuses that God gives us and the unique frustrations that we have that we're not good at, we can't be everything God wants us to be. So it came about through our own personal struggle and in the first 30 days of launching this tool and kind of a soft launch, we've had more than 25,000 people take it.
Andy Stanley (08:40):
Oh, wow.
Patrick Lencioni (08:41):
And what they're telling us, Andy, is like nothing I've ever heard in the work I've done in the last 25 years. They're saying, "I never understood who God made me to be and I'm changing the way I work. I'm changing my role on the team. I'm changing my career as a result of this. " So it's really practical, Andy. I've done every assessment. I love all the assessments at Myers-Briggs and Disc. I've never seen one that people respond to more quickly and apply in a more practical way in a matter of minutes.
Andy Stanley (09:08):
Well, I was about to ask because in any good organization, we all use assessment tools, whether we're looking at temperament or skills or leadership styles, all those things, the cynical person out there's like, "Ah, it's another product they're going to try to sell me to put in a file. We'll test a few people and move on. " So tell us real quick, because I can't wait to jump into this. And just so our audience knows, full disclosure, I took the assessment and found out that I'm a genius. I was so excited and then I realized everybody that takes the test is a genius. But once I got over that, so I do want to talk about my profile because you said this whole conversation started when you asked, why am I this way? And my wife has been asking that question a lot. So I want to understand my profile so I can go home and explain it to her.
(09:49):
But what makes this profile, and this is my word, not yours, what makes it better? I mean, what's the big deal or what's the differentiator? You answered that a little bit.
Patrick Lencioni (09:58):
Well, the key is this, it's really focused on the practical nature of getting things done and that's at work and that's at home. It's whether you're starting a project or a group at church or running an organization or just planning a vacation with your family. This is really applied to the activities, the actions that we do, and that's why it's so easily applicable. Like the Myers-Briggs, I'm an ENFP and I love the Myers-Briggs, but what does that mean for the kind of work I do day-to-day? And I've been working with that with executives for years and there's so many ways to interpret it.
(10:33):
This one, you read your results and you read the descriptions of those results and right away you go, "No wonder I'm successful at that. No wonder I hate doing that. No wonder why my wife and I have argued over this for years." I mean, she and I explained why we run our house the way we do and why we get frustrated at one another and it allowed us to stop judging each other and it allowed us to stop feeling guilty about ourselves and realize, "Oh, God wired me this way. Now I know how to go forward in a more joyful, appreciative way and solve problems without judging myself or others."
Andy Stanley (11:11):
I think anytime we can blame God for something, I feel like we've made progress, don't you?
Patrick Lencioni (11:16):
I think you can take it.
Andy Stanley (11:18):
Okay. So already, if we just stop now, every marginally unhappy married person is going to order this assessment, right? All the people in the studio with me are shaking their heads like, "What is this called again?" They weren't even paying attention until you said that. So you said there were six words that went up on the board or six categories. So walk us through ... You've named this working geniuses because this is a ... It's not strength finders. By the way, for folks who do strength finders, which is a good assessment as well, this is different than that, but it does surface strengths and contrast. So maybe just, I guess walk us through the six categories or the six words.
Patrick Lencioni (11:54):
I will do that. And for every person of these six things, two of them are what we would call a working genius. So you get energy and joy from them and you're naturally talented at them. Two of them are what we would call working competencies. You can do them okay for a while, but they don't feed you and after a while it'll start to lose your interest. Two of them are working frustrations. So this would be weakness finder and that is two are working frustrations. They deprive you of energy and joy and you need to know that. So that's the key to this is that nobody has all of them. Two of them are sweet spots for us and we need to know that. So here's how they work. The first one, and I'm going to do this in a linear way,
(12:39):
Work doesn't happen, Andy, in a completely linear way. We jump around, but there is a linear pattern to this. And the first genius, and the one that people who have it don't even think about as a genius, and society doesn't recognize it enough as a genius. It's called the genius of wonder, the genius of wonder. That's the person who can sit for a long period of time and ponder what's going on around them. They look at their environment or the church or the world and they say, "Is this the best it could be? Why are things the way they are? " Amy who was sitting next to me that day and looked at me and said, "Why are you like that? Why do you act the way you do? " She didn't know the answer, but she knew the question needed to be asked. And that's like, are we fulfilling our potential as a church or is our business really understanding our market?
(13:31):
What's going on around us? Could our family be better? And my wife has this one. She can sit and ponder and speculate and ask questions and without losing her patience. And it's the beginning of any organization, idea, initiative, or program. Somebody has to ask the question, "Could this be better?" A guy wrote to us after taking the assessment and said, "People have been criticizing me and I've been criticizing myself for years for having the genius of wonder. And I finally realized it's actually a God-given skill and I'm going to adjust my work to lean into that because I know that the environment I'm in needs it.
Andy Stanley (14:13):
Wow.
Patrick Lencioni (14:14):
I work with the executive team of a big software company. And when I explained to them the genius of wonder and we went over their results, I thought they were going to go, "Okay, this is silly." And it was the CFO who said, "Nobody on our team has this genius. We don't ponder anything. We are missing the market."
Andy Stanley (14:34):
Wow.
Patrick Lencioni (14:35):
"We don't even realize what's missing because we just want to get on and get stuff done." And he said, "If we don't bring in people that can wonder, we're going to become obsolete."
Andy Stanley (14:45):
Wow.
Patrick Lencioni (14:46):
So this is a really powerful, but sometimes it seems intangible genius and every team, every family needs it. And if we don't have it, we're often going to be asking the wrong questions or solving the wrong problem. So that's the genius of wonder.
Andy Stanley (15:02):
So that's one of six.
Patrick Lencioni (15:04):
One of six. It's not enough though. None of them are enough. The genius of wonder raises the question and it needs the second genius, which is the genius of invention, the I. So that's the W. The I, the genius of invention is that person who loves to come up with a new idea. They invent naturally, even when it's not called for, they can't help it. And you and I share this, Andy, we'll go through years later, but people with the genius of invention love a blank slate and a problem to solve and it's actually energizing for them to say, "We don't know how we want to do this. I'm going to come up with something new out of nothing." I love to create things when there's a problem and there's no context for it. That's what gives me energy and joy. I've been that way all my life and fortunately I'm in an organization that uses that.
(15:59):
Unfortunately, there are times when that's not called for, and I tend to want to use it anyway. I had a guy that I talked to a couple days ago that said he now, he works with his team and he realizes he needs to leave the meeting sometimes because they don't need his invention anymore and he's constantly trying to reinvent the wheel and they're like, "We just need to build the wheel and make it work."
(16:24):
And he realizes he was actually causing problems because he was always trying to be an inventor even when it wasn't necessary. So the genius of invention is critical. Wonder and invention, the first two, that's the ideation part of work. They're the people that go, "Something's missing. Here's an idea, but that's not enough." Then they need the third type of genius. The third type of genius is the genius of discernment. The genius of discernment is really about instinct and intuition. People with the genius of discernment, they just see patterns and they see things and they know how to evaluate and judge things. And it's a natural skill that God gave them. And so the inventor goes to the person with discernment and says, "I invented this. " And it's the discerner who says, "That's a great idea." Or, "That's a terrible idea." Or, "Well, there's a few issues here that you need to resolve before that will work." The guy, Cody in my office, he's the one who saw the invention of the model and said, "This is bigger than the five dysfunctions of a team." We were like, "Really?" He goes, "Oh yeah." He just got it.
(17:39):
He could see the connection, see how it'll apply. And if I were to ask him to give me the data to support that, he'd say, "I don't know.
Andy Stanley (17:45):
Right
Patrick Lencioni (17:46):
I can see the patterns and the possibilities. It's something I see in my gut." And he is that guy that when you ask him for advice, he always seems to know what the right thing is. He might not be the guy to come up with the idea first, but he knows how to evaluate which ones are good ones and which ones need more work.
Andy Stanley (18:04):
Wow.
Patrick Lencioni (18:05):
So that's the genius of discernment.
Andy Stanley (18:07):
So wonder, invention, discernment.
Patrick Lencioni (18:09):
The next one is, so the discerner works with the inventor and says, "You need to tweak this. Let's go through." And the adventor throws a new idea and the discerner says, "Yeah, that works better." And they get to a place where it's really good, but without the next genius, it's never going to go further. And the next genius is the genius of galvanizing. This is what actually helped me invent this model is that galvanizing is that person who gets everybody in a room and says, "This is big and we need to do something about it. Come on everybody. Get in here. We're going to talk about it. I'm going to inspire you. I'm going to organize us to take the first step. I'm going to push us to do something new." The galvanizer loves moving people forward and disrupting people's lives a little bit for something great.
(18:56):
Well, as it turns out, Andy, I don't really love doing that. I can do it okay, but I was being asked to do it in my company all the time and it was crushing me. I was getting to the point where I'd invent a new idea and help discern it and I would be depressed and they'd say, "What's wrong?" And I go, "I'm going to have to push this ball uphill, aren't I? " And they're like, "Yeah, pretty much." And I said, "I don't really like that and it's killing me. " So I looked at my team and found other people that had the genius of galvanizing and reorganized my team. After 22 and a half years of this company, we reorganized to take me out of galvanizing and to lean on other people to do more of that. And it's changed everything
Andy Stanley (19:37):
Wow
Patrick Lencioni (19:38):
Because I knew I needed it, but it was crushing me because I was doing something that wasn't a gift.
Andy Stanley (19:42):
And to talk about that for just a minute. So the tension there was, there was an idea, there was buy-in in terms of it needed to be done, but then that critical next step of executing on it or getting the right people in place to get it done, that's the galvanizing piece?
Patrick Lencioni (19:58):
Yes. Pushing people to rally, getting people in a room and say, "What are we going to do first?
(20:03):
Who's going to do this?
Andy Stanley (20:04):
Right
Patrick Lencioni (20:05):
You need to do this. You need to do this. " Just taking that first step and certain people love doing it. Other people, we had most of the people in my office who that was one of their working frustrations. I said, "Please don't make me ever ask somebody to do something that they don't like to do.
Andy Stanley (20:20):
Oh, wow.
Patrick Lencioni (20:21):
So they were like, "So Pat, it sucks less for you to do that. Why don't you do it? "
Andy Stanley (20:26):
Well, and too, in organizational life, as the point leader, you have the most leverage over everybody in the organization. So there's a part of the intuition of all that is, well, of course Pat would engage the people and put people in place, but it works 100% against the way that you were wired. So again, this is another example that we talk about on our podcast all the time. The org chart is not necessarily your friend. Oftentimes the org chart is in the way of progress. And this is an example of that. You're the most influential person in the organization, but the least equipped perhaps to actually get a project off the ground and going. So Keith, I don't want to interrupt, but that's a real tension point in a lot of organizations.
Patrick Lencioni (21:06):
I love it. Every pastor, every CEO, every leader, every school principal has two of these geniuses, but they're not the same. And people say, "Which one should the CEO have? " It's like, they should have the ones they have and they should surround themselves with the ones they don't have
Andy Stanley (21:22):
Yup, yup
Patrick Lencioni (21:23):
Because one pastor isn't the same as another. So yeah, so galvanizing is critical, but the next one is really interesting. It's the genius of enablement. Now a lot of people go, in fact, we struggle to choose this word because people go, "Enable, that's not good. It means you're enabling somebody around an addiction or a disorder."
Andy Stanley (21:39):
Right
Patrick Lencioni (21:39):
And it's like, no, that's not good. But enabling people to do good things is an absolute genius. And it's something that people who have this one think, "Oh, I'm just nice. I just help a lot." And sometimes they even say, "I'm just a pushover." And it's actually an innate genius. Some people just know how to go, "You need help. I will help you in the way you need that help. I will be the first person to lift this because if nobody answers the call, it doesn't get done." Andy, I was working with a church-based organization that had no enablers.
Andy Stanley (22:15):
Oh, goodness.
Patrick Lencioni (22:16):
And they would come up with a new idea to serve the church, and then they go, "How come nobody's helping me? "
Andy Stanley (22:21):
Well, that means they had no volunteers. That's what we call that in a church, right? It's the volunteers.
Patrick Lencioni (22:25):
Right. But people think volunteering is just going, "Okay,
Andy Stanley (22:29):
Right, Right
Patrick Lencioni (22:29):
I'm compliant." No, volunteerism is a genius. And you know something, Andy, you and I actually have this as our least. We are terrible at this. And I felt bad. A lot of Christians will go, "You mean I don't want to help people? " No, I'll help people, but not on their terms. I want to invent something for them. Here's how it works in my family. My wife says, "I need your help cleaning out the garage this weekend. Right away, I'm just on the floor." And I'm like, "Okay, tell me. " So first of all, I'll say to her, "What do you mean?"
Andy Stanley (23:04):
What do you mean? Wait, the garage. Go slow. Go slow. Yeah.
Patrick Lencioni (23:08):
She'll say, "Just stand in the corner all day Saturday and I'll hand you things and I need you to carry them outside." And I'll say, "No, no, no, no, no, wait. First of all, why do you think we need to do this? And what's your process?" Because I am really bad at helping people if I'm not tapping into my invention and discernment. Other people are like, "I will be right there with you. Whatever you need, because I get what you need, I will help you in the way you need that help." It's a God-given gift. Now, sometimes I have to just suck it up, Andy, and do that,
(23:40):
But let me tell you, it crushes me. Here's an interesting story. When I was a kid, I loved my dad, God rest his soul, but I hated mowing the lawn with him. It was one of his favorite things to do. Saturday morning, it was a ritual. He wanted to get up and mow the lawn and he'd get me out of bed and I'd go do it. My brother refused. So I'd go outside and I would follow my dad around for three hours and I hated it. And now I know why. Because he would say, "Do whatever I tell you and do it perfectly." Those were the two things I hated. Had he said to me, "See that yard, Pat? I want you to design what you think it should look like and come up with a great way to keep it like that. " I'd have been like, "Thank you.
(24:18):
" He wanted me to enable it and then to do it exactly the way he wanted, which that's fine. It just was the antithesis of who I was.
Andy Stanley (24:29):
Well, this, again, there's so much, I'm trying not to interrupt, but again-
Patrick Lencioni (24:34):
No, I love it.
Andy Stanley (24:34):
... to dive into organizational life, people, don't you think ... I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth because I'm new to all this. We misjudge people, and this is a great illustration, and you're going to think I'm making this up. While you were talking before you got to the mowing the grass illustration, I was thinking mowing the grass illustration because if my dad had said to me, "Andy, the grass needs to be mowed. Figure out how to get it done." That's very different than Andy go mow the grass, isn't it? And if you take that simple idea and bring it into organizational life and think about how we ask people to do things and what we associate with that ask, it can be extremely motivating, extremely demotivating, even though it's the same task that ultimately needs to get done. So understanding this, even the way we as leaders approach the people in the organization is it's mind blowing how different things could be just culturally.
(25:27):
Am I right? Am I on track with you?
Patrick Lencioni (25:29):
You're absolutely, and I want to reverse it. Now, I think the way to motivate somebody is to say, "Here's a general task, but I want you to figure it out and tell me what you're going to do. " There's people that go, "You're crushing me. "
Andy Stanley (25:44):
Yeah, tell me what to do.
Patrick Lencioni (25:46):
Please give me clarity on what you want it to look like and how you like to see it through. And that would motivate me because I love having that kind of clarity and I love finishing it, which leads us to the sixth and last genius, which is the genius of tenacity. Some people get joy and energy just from finishing things, from crossing it off the list, from making sure it gets done to high standards and that it has the desired impact.
(26:12):
And so those people are like, "If you give me the standards and you tell me what you want from me, I will love coming to work every day and getting it done for you. " And if at the end of the day you can say, "You did it the way I wanted and you pushed it through," I will go home and say, "It was a great day." See, two different people have two completely different ways of getting energy and enjoy from their work and I often think they want to be managed exactly how I would like to be managed, but if their geniuses are different, that's just as frustrating to them. And that's the beauty. When people see their results, suddenly a manager can say, "Oh, I know how I need to manage them." Or a parent can say, "My kids, some of my kids want to know exactly what I want from them." Others are like, "Dad, let me figure it out.
(26:59):
" Others are like, "No, actually put me in charge of it so I can galvanize people. " It changes everything and I just didn't realize that we all had different geniuses. The last one is tenacity, and that is that person who will get it done no matter what, not because they're responding to the galvanizer and they're just trying to be helpful, but they love to finish and see the impact and the results. That's what feeds them.
Andy Stanley (27:25):
So wonder, invention, discernment, galvanizing, enablement and tenacity. So now the question everyone is asking is, how do I find out what I am and how do I ... Well, I guess next time we get together, we're going to talk a little bit about how to implement this, but let's just start with what's the assessment like? How does a person connect with the assessment? Because it would really be a lot of fun if some of our podcast listeners actually took the assessment between this conversation and the one we have next month, because that will make next month's conversation a lot more meaningful. So what's the next step?
Patrick Lencioni (27:58):
So first of all, it usually costs 25 bucks. And Dave Ramsey's a friend of mine. He said, "Why'd you charge so little, Pat? You could make a lot of money on this. " And I said, "Because we want everyone in the world to do it because we don't think that ... " We think a kid graduating college figuring this out is going to save them years of misery. We think people in their marriage and in their house running a home. We think people in a church, I'm a youth minister. Well, what kind of a youth minister are you? Are the invention youth minister or the tenacity youth minister?
Andy Stanley (29:04):
Anything else before we wrap up, Pat, on this first part of the conversation?
Patrick Lencioni (29:56):
I'd just like to raise this to the highest level. The beauty of this model is It allows us to stop feeling unnecessary guilt about who we are. There's people who spend their whole life thinking, "I'm lazy." And it's like, "It's not laziness. It's the way you're wired." And other people think, "He's lazy, or she's not good at this. " And it's like, "She's just not wired that way." And when you do that, it's not an excuse. It allows us to be the person God made us to be. And boy, that's a wonderful thing to hear when people talk about that.
Andy Stanley (30:26):
All right. . As always, Pat, thanks so much for being with us. We can't wait to continue this conversation next month. And for the rest of our podcast listeners, if you'll go to andystanley.com, andystanley.com, that website, you can download the Leadership Podcast application guide that goes with today's podcast. Thanks for listening. Make sure you join us next month at the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast as we conclude this important conversation with Patrick Lincioni. We'll see you next time.